Automated Investment With Lysa Co-founder Emilie Andersson

Emilie Andersson Lysa.jpg

So a well-paid lawyer at a top tier law firm jumps ship to start an automated investment fund from scratch? That's a story we need to cover. Emilie Andersson goes into everything from entrepreneurial struggles to investment principles and her marketing philosophy. Overall we had a great time talking to Emilie and we are sure you'll have an equally great time listening. Check it out!

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Transcript

Note: This is an auto-generated transcript that will butcher words and names sometimes (Our favorite is when our guest Johannes Cullberg became “Your Hummus Cool Bye”). The format is not optimized for reading, but for searching for specific segments. Hence the timestamps etc. Happy searching!

00:00

Emily Anderson whoo

00:06

awesome guest yeah I think she's

00:09

probably one of the bravest guests that

00:11

we had on the podcast she was a super

00:14

successful lawyer when I started my

00:16

first business I started after finishing

00:19

University and I basically had a lot of

00:21

student loans but I didn't have a burn

00:23

rate so I could just start my business

00:25

and I had no money but I had no cost

00:27

just a tiny tiny bit so there weren't a

00:30

lot of demands for making a profit

00:33

absolutely and I I did the same thing I

00:35

didn't have a single cent to my name

00:37

pretty much I didn't even have a kitchen

00:39

in my apartment actually when I started

00:41

Dages I heard that you grilled you had a

00:44

grill outside on your balcony or is

00:46

anything like that yeah yes I cooked

00:48

food outdoors in the wintertime on an

00:50

outdoor grill but so yeah but yeah I was

00:52

really good at living for no money at

00:54

all because I was a student for so many

00:57

years so you learned all the tricks so

00:59

absolutely it's much harder to start

01:01

from a place where you're used to having

01:03

a good salary and that makes Emily very

01:07

brave and I also think they've been

01:09

she's pretty early stage yet they've

01:12

done this since 2015 I think and they

01:14

already have over a billion coners under

01:17

management which is pretty cool her

01:20

company that she co-founded is Lisa or

01:23

Liza I think it's Lisa she was very

01:26

clear about that yeah she was very clear

01:28

it's not Liza

01:29

yeah they've automated investments in

01:31

index funds which is I mean if you

01:34

automate that you can make it even more

01:36

efficient and lower the fee which is

01:38

exactly what you want as a person

01:40

investing your money so I want you to

01:42

turn up the volume and make sure that

01:45

you listen to the entire of this episode

01:49

because it's a very good episode and

01:51

also I want to thank you all of our

01:54

listeners because how you interact with

01:57

us in social media I think it's I think

01:59

it's amazing how much feedback how much

02:02

engagement especially on LinkedIn that

02:05

we get in our posts and suggestions

02:08

about guests and we also get

02:12

a lot of positive feedback around this

02:16

entire initiative so we're super

02:18

thankful for this and enjoy this podcast

02:24

it's also I think very cool that I start

02:26

seeing a lot of feedback out in real

02:28

life where people come up to me and want

02:30

to talk to me about what's in the water

02:32

and that's very cool that happened to me

02:33

today and it happened this weekend and

02:35

it starts to happen more and more so I'm

02:37

really excited about that

02:39

yeah we're trending up I think so we're

02:41

actually featured in an apples podcasts

02:43

directory still we've been featured

02:46

there for several weeks now which is

02:48

awesome so thank you Apple for picking

02:50

us and if you haven't already please

02:52

we're super happy if you go into your

02:55

podcast player and you rate us 5 star

02:59

rating and you make sure that you write

03:01

the review and you subscribe to the

03:03

podcast yes and thank you for all of you

03:05

who have done that we are very very

03:08

grateful for that now let's get just

03:10

started let's get on with it

03:11

yeah so Emily Anderson take it away

03:14

[Music]

03:37

do you pronounce your name Emily

03:40

Anderson or how do you how do you do it

03:43

when I wake up in the morning it's

03:45

exactly like that

03:46

stage performance from our zero exactly

03:49

exactly

03:49

yes and I think I I think that's good

03:52

though because the things that you say

03:54

to yourself that's who you become right

03:56

yes I think most people are a bit too

04:00

shy

04:02

I can definitely be one of them so

04:05

sometimes I need to pick myself in like

04:07

you rock so who is Emily Anderson a

04:10

short story

04:11

I'm the previous lawyer who completely

04:15

left my comfort zone becoming an

04:17

entrepreneur that's a brief one Hospital

04:22

how's the long story I was working at a

04:25

top-tier firm here in Stockholm working

04:28

quite lengthy hours I had had certain

04:32

bad experiences from the finance

04:34

industry I knew that I should invest to

04:36

low costs but certain advisors from

04:40

certain insurance companies won't

04:42

mention any any names

04:43

typical lawyer fashion exactly they they

04:48

basically said like okay if you don't

04:50

want to pay for this then you could

04:52

select this fund which was one point

04:55

four percent which is like the average

04:57

cost of a Swedish fund and way too

04:59

expensive to my experience so I was

05:03

quite frustrated when I left that

05:05

meeting but that was the fund that I

05:07

chose because there weren't any others

05:10

and the years went by and I felt like I

05:14

should really start investing so I

05:17

started an account with one of the

05:20

online brokers in Sweden honza several

05:23

times but never really got into started

05:26

investing because I didn't have time or

05:28

really knowledge it was hard for me to

05:30

select funds so when I met a friend who

05:36

said like okay so I'm leaving my job I

05:39

was like okay completely while he was

05:41

working for an

05:43

investment company here in Saco and he

05:46

explained what he was going to do I felt

05:48

like this is the perfect company for me

05:50

though he wanted to create Swedish or

05:54

European version of betterment the

05:57

American robo-advisor

05:58

I kind of stalked him I told I gave him

06:02

some advice we talked about that earlier

06:04

if you give someone advice perhaps you

06:07

can pursue them to buy your services so

06:10

that was my way into the company sort of

06:13

like pitching and talking about things

06:16

that I I didn't really knew but I kind

06:18

of pretended that I knew things that's

06:20

that's wonderful our two core principles

06:23

fake it until you make it and give as

06:26

much as you can yes all rolled into one

06:29

in that company that you started ended

06:32

up being Lisa Lysa

06:34

how do you pronounce that in English I

06:35

would say yes Lisa yeah yeah which means

06:38

light up or something exactly or shine I

06:42

know but what we wanted to do was to

06:46

create some transparency within the

06:48

finance industry and do some good so we

06:50

thought a positive word would be great

06:52

for this what what does lies what does

06:54

it do to today then what do we do we

06:57

create an easy way to invest that's

07:00

basically what we do when we launched a

07:03

company you know I came from the from

07:06

the story where I had had some really

07:10

bad advice from banks and insurance

07:11

companies so what we wanted to do with

07:14

the company was not only to automate

07:17

processes but also to create a company

07:19

without conflicts of interest so we

07:23

thought that the big big pitch is no

07:27

conflicts of interest but it turned out

07:29

that most people didn't really care

07:31

about no conflicts of interest they just

07:34

wanted an easy way to invest so

07:36

interesting so it's portfolio management

07:39

for everyone

07:40

democratized I think in in english there

07:43

is a word that we don't use here in the

07:45

Nordics very much its fiduciary yeah and

07:48

I think that that is really what you're

07:50

talking about really care that you have

07:53

to really care about the client and I

07:56

think

07:56

for the people that doesn't know it a

07:59

lot of the finance industry is okay you

08:01

invest in that and you get a very big or

08:05

a bonus on the back end or yeah

08:07

commission yeah

08:08

the way it works is that when you buy a

08:11

fund from the bank or from an online

08:13

broker they will get kickbacks so

08:16

approximately 50% of what you pay in

08:20

expense ratio gets back to the bank and

08:24

that means that their incentive is

08:26

always to to sell a more expensive fund

08:30

if they sell you an index fund that cost

08:33

0.2% they will get 0.1 if they sell

08:37

something that costs 1.4 they will get

08:41

0.7 which is seven times as much yeah so

08:44

there's just very hard to trust somebody

08:48

giving you advice with that kind of

08:49

incentive structure right exactly and

08:52

that's a major problem and you've solved

08:55

that problem I think so yes we have

08:57

sometimes with we tell the customer that

09:01

you shouldn't start to invest with us

09:02

because you need to amortize or or get a

09:05

savings account first we have a great

09:08

inflows we have 1.88 million in AUM

09:12

right now and approximately 15,000

09:15

paying customers

09:16

the customers are mainly in the Nordic

09:19

country is or are they all around the

09:21

world or yes right now we only have

09:23

customers on the Swedish market so and

09:26

how much is b2b going to institutions

09:29

etc and how much is business business to

09:31

consumers that's quite a small part

09:34

right now we want to explore that one

09:37

even further we're trying to launch

09:40

something that is called capital

09:42

tracking which is tax tax wise the same

09:47

as an ice k account but for companies so

09:50

we think that we will grow much faster

09:52

when we have that if you're a lawyer you

09:55

are by nature risk-averse you should be

09:58

yes right yes indeed and you apparently

10:02

are not very risk-averse since you

10:04

started this company and left your

10:07

secure employment yeah

10:09

happened what happened yeah I don't know

10:11

really but I've always felt what working

10:16

as a lawyer I kind of felt like I also

10:19

wanted to negotiate the more

10:21

business-oriented part of the deal

10:24

not only the legal stuff so I think I

10:27

had a great part of me but that needed

10:30

to just go out and fly now emily is

10:33

showing a sign of having a wings more

10:38

like this

10:43

service it's automated right indeed it

10:47

works in the way that you answer a

10:50

couple questions and we will recommend

10:52

you a portfolio where you can deposit

10:55

your funds and we will automatically

10:57

invest them it's really easy yeah and

10:59

there is no human check at all there are

11:02

a lot of human ships behind the scenes

11:06

but the system works automatically so

11:10

you're checking manually checking the

11:12

automatic system exactly and we also

11:15

have of course automated checks because

11:17

they are to be fair better so the the

11:20

automated tests the robots are

11:22

outperforming the humans yes indeed they

11:26

can do so much more than than we can do

11:29

in the same time and how many people are

11:32

you at Lisa today we're becoming 20-ish

11:36

soon and if you didn't automate it and

11:38

you did everything by hand how many

11:40

people would you be Oh thousand three

11:43

thousand I don't know that is an

11:44

interesting thing I think that somewhere

11:46

where the entire world is heading in

11:49

many ways banking is one of the big ones

11:51

I think yeah but but when you're looking

11:53

at banking they if this whole automated

11:57

investment becomes really big which I

11:59

clearly believe it will the banks will

12:03

probably need to get rid of some

12:06

personal bank man and so on but right

12:09

now it really grows within the like

12:10

compliance area and you will need

12:13

specific like tax managers and and

12:16

people who can give specialized advice

12:18

that the robot can't so I think you need

12:21

to specialize the things that are

12:23

where computers are robots are better

12:25

than humans should obviously be done by

12:28

robots for many reasons but then there

12:31

are this the things that can't be done

12:33

by robots or in humans like the high

12:35

touch things the the arch the poetry the

12:37

design you know all that do you think

12:40

that you know worked yeah yeah I guess

12:43

I've been doing that but even in my

12:45

industry and the advertising world in

12:47

communication world there's a lot of

12:49

things being automated also especially

12:51

in media buying and and I've discussed

12:54

actually many times with with some

12:56

friends if you could create automated

12:58

copywriting and that kind of thing and I

13:00

think that can be done for a certain

13:01

type of things and those things will

13:05

just drop in price towards zero yeah

13:08

very quickly and the other things where

13:11

you really need somebody to have them

13:13

you know the emotional magic that price

13:15

will go the other way it's it's really

13:17

hard to automate creativity in a way I

13:20

mean if we look at AI going forward

13:23

several years you can see that ideas are

13:26

basically combining two or more things

13:29

into something new and you could see

13:32

computers getting pretty good at that in

13:34

theory it hasn't quite been done yet and

13:37

nobody's succeeded but you see services

13:39

in design for example where there's

13:41

automated sign mmm-hmm

13:43

it's just not there yet but I can see

13:45

that creativity can be automated to some

13:48

extent mm-hmm

13:49

was it with AI not yet but without a

13:51

magical touch yeah I hope I hope to be

13:55

for some time better than a computer at

13:59

coming up with with well this is very

14:02

interesting when do you think the

14:04

computer will become better than you I

14:06

mean there was a point where where

14:09

computers couldn't beat Garry Kasparov

14:12

in chess for example and then there came

14:14

a point where it could and I think that

14:18

is you have to learn empathy for example

14:21

to be able to be a really good creative

14:23

person you really need to understand or

14:25

at least is creative in terms of

14:26

communicating to other people you need

14:29

to really understand that other the

14:31

other person's feelings and empathy I

14:34

think is gonna be fairly difficult to

14:36

implement

14:37

this AI but it will be possible if have

14:40

you seen the movie what's the movie the

14:43

this like a robot that's like inflatable

14:46

robot who takes care of it's a kids

14:48

movie and there's a big white looks like

14:51

the Micheline guy

14:53

and it's yeah I I've seen it I don't

14:55

remember the name of it a great movie

15:00

anyway that robot is made to take care

15:04

of other people so it's like a nurse and

15:06

that robot is extremely good at empathy

15:09

I can see that coming but it's really

15:11

far off I think but when you can get a

15:13

robot to be really good at empathy

15:14

that's when you can start at least

15:16

having a chance a shot of being better

15:19

than me creatively yeah I guess this is

15:21

a stick spore right yes something like

15:24

that

15:24

but it ties into one of your questions

15:27

that I'm gonna steal for Emily and it's

15:31

what has been some of the most magical

15:33

moments from when you started Eliza to

15:37

where you're now I think the most

15:40

magical moment was when we reached 1

15:43

billion in AUM because everyone told us

15:46

before but this will take quite some

15:49

time so what's that term AUM assets

15:51

under management right that was super

15:54

cool and it meant a lot to the company

15:57

and to did it take to reach that

16:00

approximately a year from our launch

16:03

that's kind of cool yes because everyone

16:07

when you talk about financial services

16:10

you really need to feel trust and it's

16:12

hard to trust something that is really

16:15

new you don't have a track record or

16:16

basically anything so we thought it will

16:19

take so many years to build that trust

16:22

but it went quite fast how could you

16:24

create trust so quick that's a great

16:26

question I think that we focused on

16:29

creating trust we never tried to build a

16:31

cool product there's a lot of startups

16:33

out there that just want to create a

16:35

cool app and make a quick exit we wanted

16:40

to build a completely new system in

16:43

order to be best on the European market

16:45

and that has resulted in that we can

16:48

offer services that are so much cheaper

16:51

than than anyone else so so us focusing

16:54

on that platform and getting our license

16:57

from the Swedish SMS a long history :

16:59

and just focusing on on ordinary era as

17:03

we say order and what order and

17:08

something like structure a structure has

17:12

you know way created trust because we've

17:15

never been cool we've never been a cool

17:17

company that's kind of cool this is true

17:21

for Clara as well Sarna used to be not

17:23

cool at all and then they suddenly

17:25

became cool recently now wasn't that

17:29

great like branding campaign they did or

17:32

yeah they completely change their their

17:35

branding from like something that looked

17:37

like like you know SMS loaned to

17:41

something that is one of the best

17:43

branding campaigns or branding like the

17:46

entire brand with design and everything

17:47

that's I think the world has ever seen

17:49

pretty much and then they recruited the

17:52

CEO of the ad agency they David - David

17:55

Sandstrom - to be the new CMO yeah so

17:58

they did an entire thing they found the

18:00

agency they wanted they you know they

18:02

and they had them make this amazing

18:04

campaign then they recruited the CEO of

18:06

the agency which i think is a pretty

18:07

cool story yeah and David is a great guy

18:11

he's a great guy he's gonna be on I hope

18:13

hello David you should be on the show

18:15

right yeah yeah we need him we need more

18:18

more of David in this studio answer for

18:22

David yeah we have promised to have more

18:31

CMOS on the show for me as a listener

18:35

that would be great yeah because that's

18:36

something that I think maybe you don't

18:39

so often focus on in the beginning maybe

18:41

if you focus on just selling your

18:43

product which is quite often a way to to

18:47

to create a start-up is to like test the

18:51

product through sales so perhaps you

18:53

don't have built anything yet but you

18:55

focusing on the marketing so I think

18:58

that's that's quite common yeah actually

19:01

you're right you're talking about a

19:02

Minimum Viable Product and

19:04

don't want to spend hours and hours on

19:06

on building it yeah Louis did that she

19:08

did only marketing yeah exactly

19:11

building no product just to see if she

19:12

got traction exactly so we did it the

19:15

complete other way around yeah a very

19:17

very good Louis Freeh Thompson if you if

19:21

you think that this what Emily is

19:24

talking about now is interesting you

19:26

should listen to the Louise fridge

19:27

office and episode because talks a lot

19:30

about this which is not super

19:31

interesting she's interesting for sure

19:33

have you seen there's a documentary out

19:36

on Netflix called the innovator no have

19:40

you seen that you wanna know it's a it's

19:42

about this company this startup in in

19:45

Silicon Valley it was called Theron on I

19:47

think or something like that

19:49

and they wanted to create blood samples

19:52

so you could you could you could test

19:54

your blood do your blood work without me

19:55

a tiny little sample that you got off a

19:57

finger prick rather than drawing in

19:59

these large amounts of blood and that

20:02

turned out to be like the biggest I

20:05

don't want to call it the scam because

20:08

--mess Addison the inventor Edison

20:10

apparently did it the same way he just

20:12

marketed the hell out of his products

20:14

and then he had to create them and

20:16

eventually he managed to and this this

20:20

woman who started this company did the

20:22

same thing and she was also a huge fan

20:24

of Edison's yeah she even named her

20:27

blood work machine the Edison it which

20:29

should have been a clue that it may not

20:32

be for real and they raised I think the

20:35

valuation of the company was ten billion

20:37

dollars so for marketing yeah yeah

20:41

Braun can also be worth that much so

20:44

sure but people thought that she had a

20:47

working product and they started selling

20:49

these automated blood tests to to the

20:52

public and walk through Walgreens turn

20:55

out that they did all the work manually

20:57

on the back end like my hand yeah not

21:00

the machine so the entire valuation was

21:02

just commented yeah and and they were

21:06

super secretive who did that due

21:08

diligence yeah I know you have to see

21:10

that documentary because it's absolutely

21:12

fascinating but didn't she go to because

21:14

I haven't seen the documentary but I she

21:16

was a lot in media when

21:18

went down didn't she go to jail she was

21:23

sued or the latest I've heard is that

21:26

she is living right now in a luxury

21:29

apartment with some other startup guy in

21:31

in San Francisco but she may be facing

21:34

20 years in jail perhaps we know we

21:37

haven't seen the conclusion of that yet

21:39

so kids don't do that but then again

21:42

what if she would have succeeded you

21:44

know yeah that's the thing that kind of

21:46

bugs me with that documentary because

21:49

then she could actually it's just like

21:51

Edison if he would have quit and not

21:53

have tried we wouldn't have the

21:56

lightbulb hmm right but but you can't

21:59

fool people I know that's what that's

22:03

why it's so disturbing to me as well

22:06

because I can on the one hand I

22:07

completely agree you can't it's fraud

22:10

you know and on the other hand you so

22:14

the Frodo

22:15

gentleman thing must be to base the

22:18

valuation of the company I mean you you

22:20

can create the product whatever you

22:22

however you want and if you want to do

22:24

the manual work on the back end that's

22:27

not I think that's not the thing the

22:28

thing is you should know it yeah and at

22:31

least investors investors should know

22:34

that we're not yeah we we're not there

22:37

yet we will be there right now we do a

22:40

lot of things manually yeah and in one

22:43

or two years we're gonna go there yeah

22:45

and I think that that's probably I agree

22:48

it's just that I don't think that maybe

22:50

I mean people wouldn't have put in I

22:52

think was eight hundred million dollars

22:54

of investment in the company if they if

22:56

somebody said that so it's like the

22:58

ultimate fake it until you make it a

23:00

story you know it she didn't make it

23:02

yeah let's get back to should I say Lysa

23:07

or Lisa Lisa and what has been like the

23:12

major milestones in terms of challenges

23:15

that in this because from building the

23:19

product to launching getting clients etc

23:23

that as an entrepreneur how what have

23:27

you had to go beyond when when we

23:30

launched

23:31

the first day we had liked or received a

23:34

hundred customers and we thought like

23:36

wow this is so cool

23:38

and then nothing like us we basically

23:45

had a summer where we had like oh this

23:47

is a good day five customers and this is

23:49

a good day for customers so so that

23:54

period was quite tough for us because

23:57

people told us that you should work more

24:00

with marketing and you should do this

24:03

and you should do that and we really had

24:06

to to follow our own path because we

24:10

believe that this will take some time as

24:13

I said before and as someone from the

24:15

finance industry you can't go out and

24:17

market yourself and say like this is us

24:19

we will help you because no one will

24:21

trust you so in the beginning it was it

24:24

was really hard to stay on our own

24:26

beliefs sort of not listen too much to

24:29

everyone else there are still people

24:30

telling us that you should do some

24:32

influencer marketing and so on and and

24:35

we're quite skeptical to that I think

24:37

one or two too early one of the problems

24:40

is the lack of trust and if you I think

24:44

it's a very good thing

24:46

to make sure that you have the highest

24:48

level of trust in the industry and if

24:51

you can combine that with influencer

24:54

marketing mmm yeah that's that that's

24:56

good but becoming something that isn't a

24:58

very high trust product especially with

25:02

place or position that you have I think

25:04

is it's not very smart so I think you're

25:07

on that and it's also a matter of return

25:10

of investment so it's it's quite

25:13

expensive to do influencer marketing and

25:15

if we would do some fashion bloggers I'm

25:18

not sure how many customers we would get

25:20

or how much money it they would deposit

25:23

but I'm I'm quite sure that's not the

25:26

way for us right now

25:27

yeah one thing about trust though that

25:29

I've I've seen is that if you are

25:32

everywhere especially if you use like

25:35

sponsorships yeah I have the logo in the

25:37

ice of the arena and whatever you know

25:39

people see you as something big and

25:44

that build mighty yeah that's that's why

25:46

TV has worked before if you compare TV

25:50

to to like every modern type of

25:52

marketing with the modern type of

25:54

marketing you're not sure how many other

25:56

people are seeing it but with TV you

25:58

know that a lot of other people are

25:59

seeing it outdoors the same thing

26:01

exactly so that kind of builds this in a

26:04

way it's an illusion it can be an

26:07

illusion of you being bigger than you

26:09

are so to speak and that builds trust

26:11

yeah just a it's a it's a matter of like

26:15

perceived size I think yeah I I think

26:19

but you also need to look at the

26:22

difference between branding and

26:24

commercial it's extremely expensive to

26:27

pay that kind of money for for a TV

26:29

campaign yeah and you need to do it for

26:31

such a long time before before people

26:33

start to convert when they when they

26:36

actually around New Year's decide that

26:40

oh I should look into my savings and

26:42

they've heard Lucifer like hundred times

26:44

during that year yeah it should it would

26:48

cost us so much money to do that kind of

26:50

campaign yeah so we we want to be - we

26:54

want people that that know finance to

26:58

know Lisa yeah and know that we're like

27:00

best on the market so they can tell

27:03

their friends to invest Melissa and if

27:05

our customers are happy they will

27:07

recommend us to other people right so

27:10

that's probably so that's the way we

27:11

grow yeah that's the more modern way of

27:12

building trust I guess yeah to make sure

27:14

you have the best product and then have

27:16

people tell people and tell people

27:18

that's how we anything yeah we prefer to

27:20

spend money on developing our product

27:22

yeah so what how did you come how did

27:25

you come past the four or five customers

27:28

per day we had a lot of PR during the

27:32

autumn and then it just boomed tell us

27:35

more about that we one of our first

27:37

investors was the former CEO of Avanza

27:40

the largest Swedish online broker and he

27:43

has a lot of trust with in this area and

27:45

he he went on went out and talked about

27:49

Lissa I also participated in a lot of

27:53

panels and stuff like that and did some

27:56

interviews myself as well so

27:58

and we also focus on on getting a good

28:04

relationship with with the mozzarella

28:07

cool how do you say that in English now

28:09

with the news outlets yeah at doggies

28:12

industry which is the major Sweden

28:14

Swedish finance paper so they also wrote

28:19

quite a lot about us I think it's really

28:22

interesting with PR in in the sense how

28:26

PR works today I've talked about about

28:29

with a friend of mine Christopher Eggman

28:33

that is there's specializing in

28:36

measuring and marketing and have an

28:39

automated platform for that and what's

28:41

what's interesting is that PR is often

28:44

under invested to build trust so it's

28:47

not often a lead generator by itself but

28:51

but as you say if you have three

28:52

articles in dorgon's industry people

28:55

will feel like this is something real

28:58

yeah and then all of a sudden they

29:01

people start converting mmm indeed so it

29:05

was also great for us when the two

29:08

online brokers announcer and no not

29:09

launched their Robo advisor and people

29:12

could compare us to them because then it

29:14

was so obvious how good we actually were

29:16

but that worked for you so that PR wave

29:20

that's what really sent you off yes

29:22

indeed and also that we kept growing our

29:25

AUM because if you have a lot of AUM

29:28

people will also trust you because other

29:30

people trust you so right so but that's

29:32

that's the that's the catch-22 thing

29:34

that's exactly you know you need to get

29:35

there to be trusted how did you how did

29:38

you do that first billion like when you

29:42

have like two million under management

29:44

yeah like how do people trust you to

29:47

give you their money that's a great

29:49

question

29:50

we had some really early adopters that

29:53

we knew that kind of trusted us because

29:57

we're good people and and they sort of

29:59

knew the company and that was key for us

30:02

to have these early adopters who also

30:05

recommended us to their friends and they

30:07

all of them invested more money than the

30:10

average customer so

30:11

and they are still happy happy customers

30:14

today to the company and what would have

30:16

been so that was one of the major things

30:19

what I've been other challenges that you

30:21

have that you have met no other

30:23

challenges no but recruitment is also

30:29

super tricky that's always difficult in

30:32

in companies and especially when you

30:34

don't have traction it's like we will we

30:40

will redo financing and democratize

30:42

everything and there is everything

30:44

sounds like so good and to make people

30:47

understand how good your product

30:49

actually is and that's something that we

30:52

still need to work with because there

30:55

are like hundreds of Robo advisors out

30:57

there in the Europe or perhaps even more

30:59

and what differs us from them and

31:01

there's a common misconception that we

31:04

are more expensive than betterment in

31:06

the u.s. whereas we're actually cheaper

31:09

because we're completely transparent

31:12

that we will invest your money for a fee

31:15

of 0.24 present maximum and then we

31:20

invest your money in locust fund that

31:22

costs maximum 0.15 so people look at us

31:26

and like okay then it's 0.4 and that's

31:30

more expensive than betterment but

31:32

betterment charges 0.25 and then add the

31:37

expense ratio so we're actually cheaper

31:39

which is when you want to be completely

31:42

transparent it's it's it's hard

31:45

sometimes to to show how good you are

31:47

everyone else perhaps isn't there

31:50

there's a book that I can recommend to

31:53

all entrepreneurs to read 20 times on

31:58

recruitment and the book is called who

32:00

by Jeff dr. Jeff smart and he has a good

32:04

name yeah a very good name and a like

32:07

he's like he built this from the start

32:09

with his father his father Brad smart he

32:13

created the recruitment system for a

32:15

small company called General Electric so

32:18

together with Jack Welch he created how

32:22

they

32:25

cruded and graded and developed people

32:27

for General Electric which was under

32:29

that period probably one of the world's

32:32

absolutely most successful companies and

32:35

what he's done which is so amazing is

32:38

that he he created a system that is like

32:42

milestones that you have to pass so the

32:44

first thing is you have to pass we have

32:48

to understand what an a player is the

32:50

term that they use or a person that's

32:52

really good

32:53

what is an a player for us in this

32:55

position and most people they fail their

32:59

yeah and the the second milestone is to

33:02

have an inflow of a player candidates

33:05

when we have an open position and most

33:09

people they fail at that and after that

33:11

you have you can't in the interview

33:14

process you have to understand and find

33:16

the differences between an a peer and a

33:19

B or C player so being able in the

33:21

interview process to to separate them

33:25

and then the second to last step is that

33:31

they actually have to say yes because

33:33

you meet this amazing person right it's

33:35

like I want this person for my company

33:38

and they say no and then the final step

33:41

is succeeding with the onboarding and I

33:44

and I think and then he created like

33:47

detail methods for all these areas and

33:50

it just demystifies recruiting which is

33:53

I think probably the most important

33:57

thing in scaling up a company having the

34:00

right people at the right place and I

34:03

have to say that we have a great team

34:05

and I think we have succeeded with that

34:07

but it's it's really hard when you're

34:11

early on your journey to attract the

34:13

eight people for a certain position it's

34:16

a bit more of a slump I in the beginning

34:19

porch

34:20

that's why branding and especially

34:24

personal branding like running you and

34:27

and everybody else working for you like

34:29

yeah damn branding themselves so that

34:31

people feel like okay those people I are

34:34

interesting and and that's the place

34:35

where I would love to be exactly

34:38

you know if you haven't seen or heard us

34:41

anywhere why would you start to work

34:43

with us right yeah and I think a lot of

34:44

companies have that like a lot of the or

34:48

should we say it like the older

34:49

companies big older companies have that

34:51

problem I think with recruiting young

34:54

people today that they are not perceived

34:57

as a place where you want to be that

34:59

they haven't worked on their branding

35:01

towards that demographic so and and

35:05

again I mean we've talked about that a

35:07

bunch of times here but personal

35:08

branding I think it's just for the

35:10

coming 10 years that's gonna be maybe

35:12

the most important part about just

35:15

starting a business or running an

35:18

existing business because it's gonna be

35:20

a war for talent here yeah you need what

35:22

what what do you think has been the

35:25

major differences for you as because you

35:27

were kind of an entrepreneur first and

35:29

then you changed your route to an

35:32

entrepreneur what has been the the major

35:34

differences for you as a person in your

35:36

role and people that are listening that

35:39

they may be entrepreneur entrepreneurs

35:42

today and and it's a little bit scary

35:45

maybe detectives take the step and

35:48

become an entrepreneur how what do you

35:50

feel about that Wow it's it's super

35:54

scary but I was working quite hard

35:58

before I've always done that I love to

36:01

work and if you love to work

36:04

why don't work for yourself because

36:07

you're probably capable of doing some

36:09

great stuff but I also have had my

36:14

doubts in the beginning before before we

36:17

received our permits from the Visayan

36:20

before we did our first or second second

36:24

seed round so to say it was like what

36:27

have I done I completely missed my

36:30

colleagues and the the safety net that I

36:33

had at the law firm and having someone

36:36

to ask for everything and all of a

36:39

sudden I was completely in charge of all

36:43

questions myself and that's so scary but

36:48

just do it and did you grow in the

36:52

this of course I think everyone

36:55

questions yes but if I knew before how

37:01

hard it would be I would never have done

37:03

it that's the same you know I I can only

37:10

agree I felt so bad for so I think think

37:14

that actually with Sweden and the Nordic

37:16

countries is something really great so I

37:19

sometimes speak with my my partner Tina

37:24

about this that okay what happens if

37:28

everything goes wrong yeah okay then we

37:31

have to sell our home okay I we go or I

37:36

go into personal bankruptcy okay so the

37:38

worst thing that happens is that we can

37:41

move in to either her parents or my

37:43

parents yeah and start over yeah did

37:47

they leave here and they they live in

37:49

yeah pretty close yeah my parents are in

37:52

the north so yeah I mean there's a taxi

37:58

in a new mule right and and I and I

38:01

think I just want to say that that's

38:03

something really amazing about Sweden

38:06

and the Nordic countries is that there

38:08

is a safety net so even though though

38:11

it's not I mean I think most people are

38:14

more afraid to share with their friends

38:17

that they failed rather than the failure

38:20

itself yes I did that can be quite

38:24

embarrassing so I did this I put

38:27

everything into it I did my best I did

38:30

what I thought it took and I failed the

38:33

company went to bankruptcy and I had to

38:36

go and move to my parents or sleep on my

38:40

friend's couch no I'm just I'm not sure

38:42

that's a Swedish thing entirely though

38:46

because that what you're talking about

38:47

is going to your parents and what naveen

38:49

talked about when he was here was it

38:50

that he was gonna sleep in my home he

38:52

was gonna move here if you were his new

38:55

parent yeah I guess in Sweden but it's

38:59

eally it wouldn't be funny oh no for

39:01

sure now that I when I when I walked

39:05

around without

39:06

no salary for a year and today a very

39:08

low salary but it was it wasn't like

39:12

okay but I can still go to my parents it

39:14

will be nice right it was a like panic I

39:17

have to work so hard yeah but then it

39:20

took a nice on the price so I think also

39:23

the human brain works this way so

39:25

because then you're both compelled

39:28

towards something that you really want

39:30

to and you're also pushed from the hell

39:33

so yeah you're compelled towards the

39:35

heaven and you're pushed away from the

39:38

hell up failing and that's I think at

39:42

least for me has been the needed

39:45

medicine to grow as a leader and an

39:48

entrepreneur to have both and it's not

39:51

about how you look at it I mean I was

39:53

fired from a can that's why I started

39:55

honesty I didn't think that was very

39:58

funny at the time you know but then it

40:00

turned out though it's great for you

40:02

turn out the best thing that ever

40:03

happened to me which is actually credit

40:05

to my dad he said that to me like well

40:08

you know this is probably the best thing

40:10

that ever happened to you he was right

40:11

but it doesn't feel like that

40:14

necessarily when you're there but it's a

40:17

mindset thing right indeed and you can

40:19

help you like it when you feel that okay

40:21

everything's going to I'm gonna die

40:22

and yeah at least I'm gonna be

40:25

embarrassed in front of my friends but

40:26

yeah it works for some people

40:30

what are practical learnings that if you

40:34

wear your aren't where you're at with

40:37

your team and your other co-founders

40:39

what advice would you want to give if

40:42

you want to give practical advice we

40:44

touched on it when you say get great an

40:46

amazing team right what are other very

40:49

practical things that you think is

40:51

important you need a great CTO to start

40:55

with if you want to to start a tech

40:57

company I've seen some one of the

41:02

entrepreneurs that want to launch

41:04

businesses and they want to use IT

41:06

consultants I think that's a big no-no

41:08

believe in yourself because there are so

41:11

many people out there in the in the

41:13

startup industry that will tell you what

41:15

to do but they don't have to live with

41:18

your decisions you have

41:19

to live with your decisions and they

41:21

don't even have they don't they don't

41:24

have the the full picture of everything

41:27

so so make your own decisions listen to

41:30

others learn from them but make the

41:32

decision yourself I think that's very

41:34

good advice how do you find a really

41:37

good CTO that's a great question I

41:40

didn't find my co-founder Henrik my

41:44

second co-founder Patrick I did so what

41:48

we did was or what Patrick did was

41:51

looking into the finance industry and

41:53

find someone who's great within that

41:55

area because that was the area that we

41:57

wanted to transform I'm not sure if that

42:00

applies to to all businesses but

42:02

sometimes it can be good if it's if it's

42:05

a very specific area it could be good to

42:07

have that specific knowledge if you have

42:10

a perspective on it yet what do you

42:11

think politicians in Sweden could do to

42:14

make it easier and and more fun and you

42:19

know just easier basically to be an

42:22

entrepreneur in Sweden and build a great

42:24

company I think they try to do things

42:29

right they they try to listen to

42:31

entrepreneurs and they they've changed

42:34

it changed the Warrens situation for

42:38

hiring employees so that you can give

42:41

stock options to your employees if

42:44

you're a smaller company which is the

42:47

purpose basically so they do some things

42:50

right but it's still extremely tricky to

42:54

to run a business there is so much

42:57

bureaucracy it's just so much

43:01

administration you have to deal with

43:02

yeah and I think that in what we talked

43:06

about before your company is automating

43:08

something that could have been like

43:09

thousands of employees and now you have

43:11

20 yeah I think that's a good thing hmm

43:14

automating and using human resources in

43:16

a more efficient way that's a good thing

43:18

because it releases resources to solve

43:20

other problems and we have a lot of

43:22

other problems to solve

43:23

yes I'm not I'm not in the camp that are

43:26

saying that automation is bad for for

43:28

the world and quite the opposite

43:30

actually but we need to make sure we map

43:33

those resources that are freed up to

43:35

solve these new problems and for that we

43:37

need entrepreneurs that's that's the job

43:40

of entrepreneurs basically yeah and that

43:42

makes that question in my mind one of

43:45

the absolute most important issues for

43:47

politicians to solve because we are

43:50

heading into a situation where a lot of

43:52

stuff is gonna be run by computers and

43:55

robots and and we need to re

43:57

redistribute those resources and remap

44:00

them into these challenges what do you

44:03

think we could do I mean both us

44:05

individuals but also as a country and as

44:08

you know for politicians what could we

44:12

do to make that more efficient to make

44:14

that remapping more efficient I think as

44:16

an individual you need to keep

44:19

specialize if you're working with an

44:22

area that will be automated try to find

44:24

something new already now that you will

44:27

work with in the future because it's

44:29

just a matter of time before before

44:31

everything that's beautiful and easy for

44:34

for a robot or a computer to do it will

44:37

be automated yeah so specialize yourself

44:41

as a society I think that's really hard

44:43

that's something for the politicians but

44:46

maybe two awesome eyes politic but to be

44:52

serious I think that creating a good

44:54

environment for entrepreneurs is

44:57

superintending this ya know I thought

44:59

that's actually the reason we started

45:01

this entire initiative so so what kind

45:05

of advice would you have for us in

45:07

running this initiative well just get

45:09

bigger growth you're the marketing guy

45:13

just do it Walter okay I'm on it I'm on

45:20

it

45:20

are we done I don't know maybe we are

45:22

almost done kind of is there anything

45:25

you want to share to the audience that

45:27

we haven't talked about that you think

45:29

like this is amazingly important or

45:32

pretty important or just fun or

45:33

something okay what about this if we

45:36

want to check out Lisa and read more

45:39

about you and get in touch with you and

45:41

how can people find you and how can

45:44

people find Lisa Lucy oh that was easy

45:47

yes

45:48

or just Google I think this is your

45:51

opportunity to promote oh if you haven't

45:56

started investing yet just visit a

45:59

little something just yeah because it's

46:01

super easy and you should really invest

46:05

your money because you work very hard

46:08

and you want your money to work hard for

46:10

you as well that's good that's kind of

46:13

the end is that the end of the podcast

46:15

ah yes thank you so much Emily Anderson

46:20

here great being here thank you for

46:26

listening to what's in the water

46:28

our ultimate goal with this podcast is

46:31

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46:33

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46:36

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46:38

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47:24

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47:30

[Music]