Life, Loss, and Perspective with Middagsfrid Founder Kicki Theander

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In 2007, Kicki Theander founded the world’s first dinner-kit company Middagsfrid together with her husband Victor. Not only did their company skyrocket, they also had three kids and had moved into a beautiful home outside of Stockholm when Victor suddenly fell ill. It turned out to be bone marrow cancer, and the doctors gave him 6 months to live. In episode 4 of What’s in the Water we meet Kicki Theander to have a conversation about life, loss, and putting your life’s challenges into perspective. This turned into a profound episode that we kept talking about for days after recording it. Listen in and prepare to change your outlook on life and work. 

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Transcript

Note: This is an auto-generated transcript that will butcher words and names sometimes (Our favorite is when our guest Johannes Cullberg became “Your Hummus Cool Bye”). The format is not optimized for reading, but for searching for specific segments. Hence the timestamps etc. Happy searching!

00:02

[Music]

00:05

welcome to what's in the water the

00:08

podcast where you get to know some of

00:10

the most inspiring role models in

00:13

Scandinavia and explore what got them to

00:16

where they are our ultimate goal is the

00:20

same as always to supercharge

00:22

entrepreneurship in Scandinavia in the

00:24

world to inspire people to follow their

00:27

passion to contribute to take risks and

00:29

to live their lives to the fullest our

00:32

guest today is a very special guest

00:35

Kiki Challenger and her husband Victor

00:37

started the pre-plan grocery bag company

00:40

made us freedom which translates to

00:43

dinner peace in English they were

00:45

incredibly successful had three kids

00:48

together and moved into a beautiful home

00:50

outside of Stockholm when suddenly

00:53

Viktor fell ill it turned out to be bone

00:56

marrow cancer and the doctors gave him

00:58

six months to live in this episode we

01:04

talked about what happened after

01:05

Victor's death how you deal with the

01:08

ultimate disaster when everything falls

01:10

apart and how to achieve balance between

01:13

the intense and the preneur you life

01:15

your family your friends and your own

01:17

personal health but we also talk about

01:19

the bright sides of life about the joy

01:22

of entrepreneurship about meditation and

01:24

of course about food this episode spans

01:28

the entire emotional spectrum from

01:31

darkness to strength happiness and

01:33

laughter and we hope it will be as

01:35

unforgettable to you when Liz

01:38

as it was for us were recording it so

01:42

get ready for an amazing episode with

01:45

the founder of Madrid Kiki T and ER

01:49

[Music]

02:11

so welcome keiki to the studio thank you

02:14

so good to have you here I was actually

02:17

a little bit nervous for this episode

02:19

just because it feels like it's such an

02:21

important topic and it feels also like

02:24

you we're kind of gonna be going through

02:27

a whole range of emotions today yeah

02:30

probably you have such a positive

02:32

fantastic energy and you know we've has

02:34

fun you know playing piano and just

02:37

joking around here and we're also we're

02:39

gonna go through all that and and we're

02:41

gonna talk about the hard stuff and I

02:42

just think it's gonna be an incredibly

02:45

interesting episode you know the hard

02:48

stuff also makes you be able to take

02:52

entrepreneurship and other things less

02:55

seriously and have fun along the way and

02:57

I think that nobody should start a

02:59

company just because there might be

03:01

money in it if you don't think it's

03:03

something you're good at and something

03:05

that is also fun that you enjoy you

03:06

shouldn't really be doing that you

03:07

should be doing something else yeah or

03:09

thinking it may be not just fun but like

03:11

meaningful I think meaningful is a key

03:14

word for me I'm gonna do something to

03:16

like improve society or help people

03:19

actually mentioned that in one of our

03:22

last episodes that I have a friend he

03:25

has a saying or it's not a saying he's

03:27

it's an insight where he says working

03:30

with something that is not meaningful

03:31

and not being happy at work and then

03:34

making a hundred million dollars is

03:36

never worth it never

03:38

and the problem is he says that no one

03:41

ever believes it until they do it and he

03:45

did it and he did it and you sometimes

03:48

are usually the money will follow I

03:49

think if you're if you're in the right

03:51

place if you're the right person in the

03:52

right place and you're doing something

03:55

that actually helps people you're gonna

03:57

be making money yes we talked to some

03:59

other guests talked about the journey

04:02

being the goal I mean and this sounds

04:04

like a cliche but it's not but it's the

04:06

hot it's really true yeah and I think if

04:09

you look at like the the amount of money

04:10

that I made during my years running a

04:14

company I I mean I never really took out

04:16

a market-based salary

04:17

until until I sold the company and was

04:20

like a regular employee for a year and

04:22

then I had a really good salary but and

04:24

then I sold the company but if you if

04:26

you put it all together it was kind of

04:28

like as if I had worked in my in my

04:31

former career as a management consultant

04:33

so I didn't do it for the money and I

04:34

don't regret it either no and you know

04:37

it's kind of like this what we do here I

04:39

guess you know if we did this for the

04:41

money we wouldn't be doing it right you

04:43

know wouldn't be doing it no but so what

04:47

is what's your story the reason I'm here

04:50

well I grew up in a family very academic

04:55

family where but also very like my

04:59

parents were not into risk so I mean it

05:02

was employment either that or like go on

05:05

you know choose the academic path and

05:08

maybe you know become a get my doctorate

05:10

or something those were the two paths

05:11

that I had on my momentum map of things

05:14

of all alternatives that I could see in

05:17

my mind I never had I never thought that

05:21

it was possible to start a company it

05:22

was like that was for another kind of

05:23

people they were very like non

05:26

entrepreneurial my parents so I think it

05:29

took me maybe a few years longer than if

05:31

I had been raised in another family if

05:32

my parents had had run companies then I

05:35

think I would have gotten my my um my

05:38

act together earlier so what was your

05:41

question sorry no what's your story and

05:43

yeah that's my story and I think that um

05:45

it was not until I got really bored with

05:48

my with the work that I had before I

05:50

started my business that I actually came

05:53

up with an idea that was good enough to

05:54

take to the market and I didn't even

05:56

think I didn't even think about it

06:01

wasn't even on my it wasn't an

06:03

alternative it wasn't a scenario that I

06:04

could even consider but the last job I

06:07

had as the management consultant I was I

06:09

was only there for three days and then I

06:10

just felt like I can't do this anymore

06:12

what company was that I don't know I

06:14

don't want I feel bad mentioning that

06:18

cuz it wasn't there was nothing wrong

06:19

with that company it was just that I I

06:21

was ready with it and I was I I had my

06:24

three kids and I knew I wasn't gonna

06:26

have more kids so I wasn't in a good

06:27

position to do you know take it more

06:29

brave

06:31

step but I didn't know where let's say

06:33

it's just bad product market fit there

06:35

right I have to ask what did your boss

06:37

say when you say I quit the first week

06:41

after three days I know um well he was

06:45

the funny thing is though I think that

06:47

the this boss he had he was very

06:51

charismatic he was an entrepreneur and

06:54

he had bought this company was gonna

06:55

make it to real turnaround and he was

06:57

just um it was something about him you

07:00

know I want what he has and I think that

07:02

was the reason I ended up at that

07:03

company and then I realized I want to be

07:06

him I want to be in charge I want to I

07:09

want to build something I want to make a

07:11

difference I don't just want to be a cog

07:14

in the wheel exactly I don't want to

07:16

just work for somebody else I want to be

07:17

the one no he wasn't very happy but I

07:21

mean we have a good relationship today

07:23

and he knows that he knows the story now

07:25

and that he was probably yeah forgiving

07:30

mark he's forgiving me

07:32

so your company meet US fleet which

07:34

translates to dinner peace tell us about

07:37

the background of that company how did

07:39

that come about well after I am resigned

07:41

from my job I went to a personal coach

07:43

it's kind of like a therapist but they

07:44

help people that are you know not sick

07:46

it more like to figure out what they

07:47

want to do with their lives and she gave

07:49

me just different home assignments and

07:52

we were only two weeks into the process

07:54

and she gave me this assignment and to

07:57

you know take a take a notepad spend two

07:59

hours in some you know inspirational

08:02

environment and just write about your

08:06

dream situation what would you want if

08:08

you had there were no obstacles you had

08:10

all the money in the world you know

08:12

don't care what your father things what

08:13

your parents think risk just put that

08:16

aside for a minute and just dream what

08:18

do you want was it easy to just put it

08:21

aside it was easy actually and I had all

08:23

these you know imagine these obstacles

08:25

in my mind that were not we're not

08:26

really obstacles like that I don't have

08:28

any formal training with him cooking for

08:30

example and like my parents have been

08:34

soand you know their their view on

08:37

entrepreneurship was actually quite

08:39

negative one of the families that I that

08:41

I hung out with a lot as a child they

08:42

were they were around their own

08:44

we business and they were never home

08:45

they never went on vacation and they

08:47

always dumped their kids at our house

08:49

you know like they they just kind of had

08:52

a negative view on and those were the

08:55

entrepreneurs yeah like they don't have

08:57

a life that's that that's the kind of

08:59

picture I had and they they cheat on

09:01

their taxes and it's not even true you

09:04

know just think negative things that

09:06

I've been fed growing up that's really

09:09

important I mean since the entire reason

09:12

we're doing this project with what's in

09:14

the water is to inspire entrepreneurship

09:16

because we know that that will be so

09:18

important for the prosperity of the

09:19

country over the coming twenty five

09:21

years time the world and the world

09:24

actually yeah in the world and getting

09:26

that type of view of entrepreneurs out

09:29

of people's heads because I think the

09:31

entrepreneurs will have to be the heroes

09:34

going forward we have to start viewing

09:36

them as the heroes that create the jobs

09:38

and create the value and create the you

09:40

know the trade balance ultimately of the

09:42

country and and so that's one of the

09:45

really important things for us here and

09:47

for you if you would have had that kind

09:50

of view

09:50

growing up of entrepreneurs being heroes

09:53

how would that have changed your path do

09:56

you think you would have started doing

09:58

faster I think so I think I would have

10:00

done my own thing at an earlier I was

10:01

thinking you know like I really like to

10:03

cook but the only job that I could even

10:06

visualize was to be a chef and okay do I

10:10

want to be a chef and make a lot less

10:12

money than I do now and work nights and

10:14

are in a really stressful job so but

10:18

most of the jobs I think in the future

10:19

are no are not yet here so I think it's

10:22

we have a lot of innovation to look

10:24

forward to but I get there more jobs

10:26

that we can't even we can't even see

10:28

them yet I think we talked earlier today

10:31

about fear and how that like holds

10:33

people back and I think that I was I had

10:35

a an idea also about entrepreneurs that

10:37

they're like they're smarter than

10:38

everyone else and and now I realized

10:41

that also after a few years in working

10:43

life I was I was 38 when I started my

10:45

first company I think I realized you

10:47

know people aren't that smart as you

10:49

might first think and I it's more it's

10:51

not about it's not always about being

10:54

smart it's about you know it's about

10:55

people skills it's about daring it's

10:57

about finding other people's other

11:00

people to work with that that have other

11:02

experiences than in oneself and and to

11:06

build an ultimate team and do something

11:09

and to see things in a different light I

11:12

think rather than like I can't have a

11:14

high IQ doesn't necessarily make you a

11:16

good entrepreneur um I don't think no I

11:18

think a big part of it is sticking with

11:20

what you're doing I see that even you

11:23

know I used to be a basketball player

11:24

and the people that ended up playing in

11:26

the higher leagues later on we're not

11:29

the people that were the best players

11:30

when we were young but they were the

11:32

ones that stuck with it and didn't quit

11:34

and that's the same thing with

11:35

entrepreneurs the people that just stick

11:37

with it they don't quit you know

11:38

absolutely I think a lot of

11:40

entrepreneurs might not be it's good not

11:45

to be too smart because if you see all

11:48

if you're too smart then you see all the

11:50

problems in you see this is never gonna

11:52

work yeah you don't do it you see what

11:55

the odds are

11:56

yeah and then instead because if if I

11:59

would have seen all the problems I would

12:01

have encountered in my entrepreneurial

12:03

journey I would have quit from the

12:05

beginning I would have if they said

12:07

these are the problems that you're gonna

12:09

have I was like this I'm taking a

12:11

job and that's not even you know that's

12:13

that's that would have been the smart

12:15

thing to do in the short run yeah yeah I

12:18

mean just statistically that would be

12:19

the smart thing to do but so you you had

12:22

that homework assignment from your coach

12:24

and what did you come up with us your

12:26

answer well the first hour I just

12:29

thought kind of writing things down like

12:30

the job that I would want I want to make

12:32

this much money per month I want to have

12:34

a boss that listens to me and you know

12:36

that really wants to push me forward and

12:37

just kind of things that I that I

12:39

thought I could achieve and then the

12:41

second hour it was like okay wait a

12:42

minute I just tried to like close my

12:44

eyes and picture where I wanted to be

12:46

and I'm like okay wait I'm in charge

12:47

here and we're about 20 people people

12:50

are as soon as I get through the door

12:52

people are coming to me to discuss

12:53

things and I have a bigger influence on

12:57

the business compared to I was kind of

13:01

you know one of the crowd kind of

13:02

consultant and these big consultancy

13:04

firms where I didn't feel that important

13:05

but here I was important and then I

13:07

thought you know what does this

13:08

organization or company actually do

13:11

and then I started thinking of them all

13:14

kinds of ideas that had to do with

13:15

cooking and also meditation because

13:17

meditation is a big part of my life as

13:19

well and that was kind of a real

13:19

eye-opener for me but then I put that

13:21

aside cuz I thought I don't I don't

13:22

think this is gonna this is not gonna

13:24

make money alright I think that it

13:27

there's the timings not right so I kind

13:29

of started digging into the cooking

13:31

ideas and then you know what could I do

13:32

here and then I at the time I was a

13:35

customer at I had organic fruit and

13:38

vegetables delivered to my doorstep

13:39

every 14 days a box of like 10 different

13:42

vegetables and in it was a paper like a

13:45

sheet of like a recipe sheet just did

13:47

some inspiration what can you do with

13:49

this vegetable some vegetables I had

13:51

never seen so I kind of took the idea

13:54

from there and just added a few

13:55

components but basically I snatched that

13:59

whole idea and all their conditions and

14:02

how they how it worked for example that

14:04

they delivered to your doorstep

14:05

regardless if you open the door or not

14:08

and how they had no payment at the door

14:11

and I just took a lot of that and copied

14:13

it and then I solved the problem you

14:16

know what's what are we having for

14:17

dinner but it was a lot of it was the

14:19

same so I just kind of added on to

14:21

another business idea that I had as

14:25

service that I had used myself and much

14:26

appreciated then you uh you started on a

14:31

small scale right yeah we we actually

14:36

work we did we did so we changed our

14:40

organization like for every step of the

14:42

way we started working with a local

14:44

grocery store it was actually an insulin

14:47

lesense room that we I got a pretty good

14:48

deal with with them it could come to MIT

14:53

was like kind of a medium sized and they

14:56

had had recently I think this was just a

14:59

positive turn of events that they had

15:03

just recently got a lot of new

15:04

competition from a bigger grocery store

15:06

you can Muck see where there was free

15:08

parking and where the customers were

15:10

going there instead and they lost a lot

15:12

of business and there i came and i said

15:13

i want to buy a whole lot of food what a

15:15

discount will you give me and so we

15:17

started packing our grocery bags and

15:19

they're in the storage they had like a

15:21

chilled storage room we started out

15:23

there and

15:23

we very quickly grew out of there that

15:26

store so we had to work with more

15:29

different grocers at the time and then

15:32

we changed well it's been different but

15:34

we didn't start small but it very

15:36

quickly grew just a few three or four

15:38

years into your business I was at gala

15:42

dinner and I ended up sitting next to

15:45

her husband at the dinner and I remember

15:47

I was so impressed because here this was

15:50

this amazing company that's just started

15:53

and I knew that I we started just at the

15:56

same time and my company was just barely

15:59

surviving and this company was doing I

16:03

can't remember but over ten million

16:06

dollars or around those numbers or

16:08

something like that and Victor was very

16:11

he was so charismatic and you were going

16:14

to take over the world and but it was

16:19

that was really hard right that was your

16:22

plan well that was his plan for sure you

16:25

had the company together by way we had

16:27

the company together well I was I was

16:29

gonna start it on my own and he was he

16:31

was gonna go back to work and sort of

16:32

support the family and I was gonna you

16:34

know do my thing for a while and then

16:37

we'd see where we'd end up with it but

16:38

he very quickly joined so we definitely

16:41

sort of founded it together but he had a

16:44

bigger idea I think about where we were

16:48

talking of risk you know earlier and I

16:49

think he was very much into risk and

16:52

just having fun with it and he didn't

16:54

take it so seriously it was just

16:55

enjoying every step of the way and going

16:57

to these conferences and telling people

16:58

about it he loved that and he I was

17:03

always the one who liked it there was an

17:05

article about it was always me and I was

17:07

kind of the face our company's brand

17:11

mark and he he never had a problem with

17:13

that though he was just like always you

17:15

know proud of me although he was in it

17:17

just as much and we were a good team

17:19

because he was he was kind of the one

17:21

the motor and I was the one who kind of

17:23

wanted to you know take it let's think

17:27

one more let's let's think about this

17:29

before we make this investment or before

17:31

we do this you were kind of the Board of

17:33

Directors say yeah what can go wrong

17:37

kind of that you know like that you know

17:38

like financial directors usually do we

17:40

really can we really afford this and he

17:42

was like this is the time to you know

17:43

move forward more aggressively he was

17:45

always into like starting up in a new

17:47

country and I was like wait a minute

17:49

but I think that we compromise somewhere

17:51

in the middle and I think that was a

17:54

fortunate for us in around three years

17:58

into the journey you ran into a lot of

18:01

competition well yeah we I mean I don't

18:04

know I've I haven't really gone into

18:07

this as a you know like a hardcore

18:08

business woman I entered this business

18:11

because I thought this was fun I want to

18:14

help people I really wanted to I felt

18:16

like if people really start cooking from

18:18

scratch more in their own homes and

18:19

bring their families together at night I

18:21

have accomplished something and I had to

18:23

learn the hard way to become a

18:25

businesswoman because like costs make a

18:28

huge difference it's not just about

18:30

selling you have to think about what

18:32

you're spending on as well and I think

18:35

um and I was so into like that my the

18:39

way I wanted to create a grocery bag my

18:41

way wasn't necessarily the bag that

18:43

would sell on the market and I think

18:44

that my in hindsight I think I would

18:47

probably um we were pretty much

18:51

competitors would come and take more you

18:53

know market shares from us because they

18:55

they also sold a grocery bag that was

18:57

more affordable for the masses and our

19:00

bag was always like at least 25% organic

19:03

more high-quality more Swedish locally

19:06

produced ingredients and so forth and we

19:11

just had a hub and it was like a 100

19:13

Swedish crowns different son of on a

19:14

weekly bag for a family that's quite a

19:16

big price difference and that trend

19:18

wasn't quite there yet right no it

19:20

wasn't and it still isn't I still you

19:22

know like I can see my neighbors they

19:23

they can afford organic food that we

19:25

still don't buy it because they just

19:28

don't want to pay the price difference

19:29

they'd rather I guess I don't know if

19:31

they don't believe in it or if they I

19:34

think when you see the tomato tomato and

19:37

you see the organic tomato and you see

19:39

there is no difference between

19:40

these Tomatoes

19:41

and then another one that one of them is

19:43

almost twice as expensive it's like I'll

19:48

go with this one

19:49

but there is list right there is a list

19:50

of

19:51

remember the name of the list but

19:51

there's a list of like these vegetables

19:54

matter if they're organic or not and

19:56

these don't so like you know peppers

20:00

that matters and but that's also a

20:03

misconception because that was a based

20:05

on wrong facts it was really black

20:07

pepper but they had they had translated

20:09

that wrong so actually peppers were

20:11

really sprayed for a while like sweet

20:14

paprika ket and now they're kind of

20:18

growing hot houses and they don't

20:19

they're not sprayed it hardly at all so

20:20

that has also changed but I I think that

20:24

everything is sprayed basically but

20:26

grapes are the worst if I an organic

20:29

food just to clarify is not sprayed yeah

20:32

but there's also other differences like

20:35

we've raising animals like the whole

20:37

farming is different and it's

20:38

fertilizers and there's so many things

20:40

and for how pigs are raised there's like

20:43

so many differences and it's not just

20:46

about spraying vegetables right so I

20:49

think it matters and I think it's it's

20:51

worth the price difference but the

20:53

market wasn't there and I think if I had

20:55

done it over today I would I would

20:56

create a mainstream product instead and

20:59

try to upgrade people start I think I

21:02

would have accomplished a bigger food

21:03

revolution if I had more catered to the

21:06

masses rather than the ones that were

21:09

already sort of quality oriented like

21:12

myself and then you can upsell exactly I

21:15

could have had it the whole organic

21:16

bagged in in our portfolio of products

21:20

right that would have been a better way

21:22

to go and I also would have brought in

21:23

like capital earlier we actually never

21:28

did it right so and they're I think

21:31

they're our main competitors got like a

21:34

investment from venture capitalists yeah

21:38

they cut they got an advance they they

21:41

managed to get a step forward and then

21:42

they started taking shares and then they

21:44

had all these advantages of being being

21:46

the biggest and they got cheaper prices

21:49

on food and makes a big difference

21:52

on the bottom line so yeah sorry I think

21:53

yeah just to have a short technical

21:55

break here maybe we should place you a

21:58

little bit more there and do this with

22:00

the mic so you can you know

22:02

yeah it's kind of important so we make

22:06

you sound at your best yeah and your I

22:10

want to change sound very good by the

22:14

way

22:14

yeah nothing just I just wanted to be

22:18

perfect

22:18

yeah that's my job I wanted to talk

22:23

about that with perfectionism oh that's

22:25

perfect

22:28

you can be my coach on that okay because

22:30

I need to really do some work with nice

22:32

myself on that

22:33

no but I've them I thought a lot about

22:35

that and I think that that was one thing

22:37

that we we didn't do which was good and

22:40

that was one of our success factors in

22:41

the beginning and we were talking about

22:43

you know how did you grow so much in

22:44

three years and I think it was that we

22:46

we dared launch a product that wasn't

22:49

perfect and we were we had the first

22:52

mover advantage they had nothing to

22:54

compare with except their own their own

22:57

you know food habits the and they

22:59

weren't doing so well they were giving

23:00

their kids you know food with very

23:02

little variation very few vegetables and

23:04

we we had a solution to their problem

23:07

and I and an example of that is that we

23:09

M for example the first time we

23:12

delivered our grocery bags our own our

23:16

own bags with our own logotype had not

23:18

yet come from the printer so we had to

23:19

send them out in each get bags which was

23:21

of course was a disappointment but if we

23:23

waited had we waited then the the

23:26

competitors might have gone to market

23:27

before us it was only a matter like

23:29

three weeks and sometimes and like our

23:32

website it didn't have to be perfect we

23:34

could you know set something up pretty

23:35

quick and then go from there and improve

23:37

it

23:37

our recipe sheets that no photos there

23:40

was too much text on them

23:42

we were very unprecedented season the

23:46

food to taste and you know an

23:48

inexperienced cook doesn't know what to

23:49

do they want to know exactly how much

23:52

salt to put a half a teaspoon you know

23:55

like you they wanted the instructions to

23:57

be exact but it was much better than to

24:01

just buy the food for yourself

24:03

yeah well absolutely but it wasn't um so

24:08

I think it's obviously get my my advice

24:10

to someone who's planning on starting a

24:12

company is like get your butt out of

24:13

ther and then you know you work with

24:16

continuous improvements each day rather

24:18

than try to get it perfect and then and

24:20

then go out that's what we're doing here

24:23

yeah we have we have a saying I'm

24:26

including you in this saying now thank

24:28

you sloppy success is where is way

24:31

better than perfect mediocrity Wow I

24:34

like that

24:35

Johan keep that's this thing in the in

24:37

these interviews he keeps dropping lines

24:39

that you want to put us a tattoo on your

24:41

you know your eyelids you little um you

24:47

know framed pictures on the wall yeah we

24:50

should have those and sell those you

24:51

know just bumper stickers wind yeah yeah

24:55

I think yeah I have a huge problem with

24:57

that I want everything to be perfect and

24:59

I can't release anything ever so I have

25:02

you helped me a lot with that and I

25:04

think the the way one of the best ways

25:07

to get away from perfection is to like

25:10

with this podcast we launched every

25:13

Monday and a new episode needs to be

25:16

finished so creating accountability is I

25:21

think really important if this

25:24

perfectionist and comes into play agree

25:28

100% so what are some magical moments

25:32

that you had when building your company

25:35

actually I think the whole first like

25:37

three years was quite magical but the

25:41

first year maybe extra much so because

25:43

it was like it was just so much fun you

25:47

know figuring out how to solve a problem

25:50

that had never before been just you know

25:52

we we designed our own pack wagons that

25:57

you know just to design those and just

26:00

you know roll up our sleeves and start

26:03

packing bags and see how many mistakes

26:05

we made and to tying that and it was

26:07

just all a lot of fun even though the

26:09

the jobs themselves were actually quite

26:12

you know like low qualified jobs but

26:13

when you're doing them all then you get

26:15

that you get them you get a sense of it

26:20

all like you're really building

26:21

something with your own hands and I just

26:24

think that's so rewarding and that and

26:27

also I think one of the magical moments

26:29

for me I had

26:29

pinched myself in the arm like every

26:31

week in the beginning like when when the

26:34

media wanted to interview me and Stefan

26:36

why they want to see me it was it was

26:39

just mind-blowing

26:40

one moment that I especially remember

26:43

was also like becoming an employer and

26:45

we were like 7 employees and we were

26:47

going to our first conference I mean I

26:50

cried I was just thought this is so this

26:54

is just like it's just a I don't know it

26:57

was is this really possible is this

26:58

really happening and especially with

27:01

like the background that I have that I'm

27:03

doing it myself and my especially my

27:05

father was like all the time are you

27:08

have you really thought this through

27:10

you know what if it all you know it just

27:12

fails are you prepared for that and I'm

27:16

I just never thought about that and I it

27:19

was just it is so much fun every a lot

27:22

of things and I think that in the

27:24

beginning when we were following you

27:25

know every time we get a customer we get

27:26

this little ping and we just had this

27:29

really easy not a sound for it very

27:32

little simple kind of like a little form

27:37

to fill out and then we would send them

27:39

the information I think that it made a

27:40

little sound this is some memory I have

27:43

I can't quite remember how we did it on

27:44

the web and it was like no it maybe

27:47

didn't make a sound maybe I'm just just

27:48

you know this is maybe metaphorically

27:52

speaking like a little pling but every

27:54

time I got we got a new customer it was

27:55

like we were really jumping up and down

27:57

literally because it was just so cool

27:59

like and we at the time when we baked

28:02

these cookies and and made coffee and

28:04

stood out in the park like little kids

28:05

selling lemonade on the side of the

28:07

street and just two people signed up

28:10

after that we were like oh my god two

28:12

people signed up after this and then it

28:14

kind of started I read this book like

28:17

the 50 best you know public relations

28:19

eye ideas and then I just you know I

28:22

followed the instructions and one of

28:24

them was like invest in good photography

28:27

so I spent like five thousand Swedish

28:29

crowns on on good photos and I contacted

28:33

the biggest newspapers and in Sweden

28:35

both of them wrote about us and one of

28:37

them even because I had such a good

28:39

picture I was wearing like a really

28:40

bright green sweater and was holding

28:41

this golden chicken and

28:43

and leeks and just a really nice picture

28:45

for the business pages that are usually

28:47

really boring otherwise had almost a

28:51

whole page that was just like an

28:53

advertisement for for our service and

28:55

after that we just had like we had a lot

28:58

of thing ding ding after that that is

29:00

vice of having good images that's a

29:03

recurring advice actually you you're the

29:05

third guest saying that really yeah okay

29:08

so but do you have that picture still

29:11

yeah you send it to us I'm trying to

29:15

think where I would have it but I I I

29:17

can I can take it just take a picture of

29:19

it yeah my scrapbook send it to you on

29:22

an email or something yeah we can post

29:24

it on our Facebook page or whatever here

29:27

because that we need to see that picture

29:29

and of course an example of a perfect PR

29:32

picture but so so you know you're moving

29:36

up and up and optimist you're

29:38

approaching this cuspid you know it's

29:40

just everything's going so well for you

29:42

and you're having so much fun how do you

29:45

how do you feel at this point about your

29:47

career like then I mean I was just so

29:51

much in it that I don't know if I've

29:52

ever ever stepped back and really like

29:54

felt any pride I was it was like

29:57

exciting really exciting like is this

30:00

really happening but I I've never really

30:03

felt like my god I did it it's kind of

30:06

an kind of an unrealistic feeling like

30:08

that did I really do this and sometimes

30:11

when I like invited to a podcast like

30:14

this I still feel like I don't really

30:15

fit in like I'm not I'm not like the

30:18

others it's not really I don't know I

30:21

just I can't always really focus on the

30:22

problems that were not yet solved rather

30:24

than feeling proud of what I'd done but

30:26

happy though right I was yeah

30:29

I was absolutely sorry and and this is

30:31

it never really felt like a real job it

30:34

never felt like the jobs I'd had before

30:36

never and I was always um it was more

30:39

like in the beginning I mean Monday was

30:42

the new Friday I was completely absorbed

30:45

and I was definitely in a state of flow

30:47

Monday is the new Friday take note take

30:50

a note

30:51

that's another tattoo Monday is the new

30:53

Friday yeah I think I always feel

30:57

little bit sad when I ask people how are

31:00

you on Fridays and they say well I'm

31:03

good because it's Friday and then a

31:06

small piece of me dies every time I hear

31:08

that I agree 100%

31:11

then you're in the wrong job yes yeah I

31:14

I think a lot of entrepreneurs they

31:16

always look ahead so they never take a

31:19

moment or enough time to reflect and

31:23

feel what's really happening they just

31:26

move on and say this is the next goal

31:28

the next problem to solve the next

31:31

journey I think it's time I think it's

31:33

good just to stop for a minute and just

31:35

to celebrate like we did in the

31:38

beginning you know I forgot a hundred

31:39

new customers we would we would

31:41

celebrate and then we also did give to

31:43

charity like we would give to to

31:45

deliveries to you know poor families and

31:47

and them try to like share our success

31:52

so so we I mean we did things like that

31:54

along the way but I still sometimes feel

31:56

still today I can't really when I read

31:59

about myself like in an article like I

32:01

was when I was coming here to the pot to

32:04

be on the podcast I just wanted to like

32:05

see what was New York Times wrote about

32:07

us and I was like this isn't really this

32:10

isn't really me it's just weird I don't

32:11

know I can't quite identify with my

32:14

whole career I think a few years after I

32:18

met Victor I was like super shocked

32:21

because I saw this newspaper and that

32:25

this guy that was this super successful

32:28

mega entrepreneur just got really sick I

32:31

I started following that and shortly

32:34

after not he passed and like what what

32:41

happened well he got sick for it he was

32:45

he was sick a lot them like 24 months

32:49

before he was diagnosed with bone marrow

32:51

cancer and I thought you know you when

32:54

you're sick like with the flu you you're

32:56

sick for longer than other people and

32:58

this has been now quite a few times in

32:59

the last two years cuz I kind of saw my

33:01

I remember going to like some parties

33:03

like 40 year parties and I went by

33:05

myself and that happened like oh is he

33:07

sick again other people's a sick again

33:09

but he recovered but very slowly each

33:12

time and then I sent him to the doctor

33:13

and he they ran some tests and I just

33:16

thought it was maybe no lack of D

33:17

vitamin or iron or something you know

33:20

quite simple to correct but it turned

33:22

out to be they ran more tests and then

33:25

finally he was being investigated for

33:28

leukemia and we just we just entered

33:33

like a state of shock and that week you

33:36

know waiting for the definite results

33:38

was I think that was the worst week of

33:39

my life

33:40

I could not function at all I could even

33:42

feel the ground under my feet I was just

33:45

I couldn't even keep my own temperature

33:47

I had to like I was so cold I couldn't

33:50

eat I was just under two blankets in

33:52

front of the fireplace and I just

33:53

couldn't I don't know it was I don't

33:57

know how we got through that week and

33:58

then it used a little bit when we found

34:01

out just to kind of like and then don't

34:02

telling the kids and telling our workers

34:05

and it was a changed everything I think

34:08

it's difficult to when someone quit

34:12

their job and my business say and share

34:15

that with our co-workers how do you

34:18

actually how do you how do you say that

34:21

I mean that must be like almost

34:24

impossible to even pronounce to your PC

34:27

add quite a lot of employees at the time

34:29

we did I think that there's really no

34:33

good way of saying it you just have to

34:35

say it and we we never I think that was

34:39

we had a company culture of it very was

34:41

very open and I think that that's

34:46

something I had to learn they like to

34:47

not be made quite so open with everyone

34:50

about everything that's happening in my

34:51

life it's kind of part of my personality

34:53

that thing I had to work with it's also

34:55

maybe a lesson in being become more

34:57

hardcore businesswoman but this was like

35:00

something we just couldn't hide because

35:01

it was it was just you could tell right

35:04

away that something had happened it was

35:06

bad and they were in their own shock and

35:08

they they had their own grief and

35:10

empathy and I think I just business just

35:13

completely went into like went on hold

35:16

and nothing was being done like for

35:18

several days after the first diagnosed

35:21

that he was given

35:22

and then he had a few relapses along the

35:25

way and that was the same thing and we

35:29

felt their support but we would have

35:30

said you know we tried to say business

35:31

as usual the best way to help us would

35:33

have been just to work as hard as they

35:34

could but that didn't happen they had to

35:37

talk about it you know they had the need

35:39

to talk about it so you're on top of the

35:41

world everything's going so great

35:43

do you have three kids you have this

35:44

amazing house that you've moved into and

35:48

this then everything just collapses

35:50

under you that was the feeling yeah

35:53

absolutely

35:54

but um somehow you know I think that the

35:57

human psyche is is made for getting

36:04

through trauma most people even in war

36:06

zones you know they don't they don't

36:07

just lay under a blanket or just go kill

36:10

themselves or something everyone has

36:11

that strength in them I think even if

36:13

they lose a family member I didn't think

36:16

that it was possible to get through it

36:19

and just to kind of like going through

36:21

the whole dying process was just so so

36:24

hard but you know one day at a time and

36:27

it anybody can do it and anybody can end

36:31

up in that situation and it could be

36:33

your child it can be your spouse it

36:35

could it there's you have really no

36:38

choice that's the thing how did you

36:41

specifically do to handle all this

36:44

stress and I guess fear as well during

36:47

this this period of your life we just

36:51

took it one day at a time I think and

36:52

you know just get stick to our routines

36:54

get food on the table and I mean I would

36:56

go into work and I'll go to board

36:58

meetings and I would you know do things

37:00

where I was when I was um when I was

37:03

really needed but I I didn't get much

37:05

done really during that period it was

37:09

it's for a big part of that time

37:12

especially when he was dying I didn't I

37:14

couldn't it was you know I was I was

37:17

nursing him practically and he needed

37:20

help with everything he couldn't he

37:21

couldn't go and get the newspaper and he

37:23

couldn't really get around very well and

37:26

he needed help in the home and it was

37:30

just and I think anyone would have done

37:32

the same

37:33

and I'm glad today I'm glad that I did

37:35

it and didn't just go to

37:36

and you know business as usual I don't

37:38

think that would have that would have

37:41

worked maybe it wouldn't have felt so

37:43

good

37:44

looking back at it now yeah no I

37:46

wouldn't I wouldn't I might have gotten

37:48

more for the company that when I sold it

37:51

so maybe financially I would have been a

37:53

little more that felt a little more

37:54

secure but I think that this is I feel

37:56

better this way and I mean that's I

37:58

think part of a huge valuable thing that

38:01

we can and you can give to our listeners

38:04

is that perspective you know just sure

38:09

you could have gotten more money for

38:10

your company and the work you do is

38:12

important but the other things there

38:15

needs to be balance between all those

38:17

things and for an entrepreneur I think

38:18

it's so easy to work like we said you

38:21

know Monday is the new Friday the worst

38:24

part for me personally of my workday is

38:27

when I have to put everything down and

38:28

and just stop working you know I hate

38:30

that and that has two sides to it you

38:35

know the one side is that you can do

38:36

something that you love and journey is

38:38

fantastic and you can enjoy your you

38:40

know everyday life and the flip side of

38:43

that is you also have to balance it with

38:45

the rest of your life and the lesson

38:48

that I think you can bring to people is

38:51

like you know how when you're moving

38:53

from that cloud of just success into

38:58

this state you know where you can you

39:01

must have read reevaluated everything at

39:03

that point right well my mind wasn't

39:04

working so I didn't really have a choice

39:06

like to do I couldn't really I couldn't

39:09

wait for awhile I couldn't even read it

39:11

was just like that function and my you

39:14

know my brain was closed down I was like

39:17

tunnel vision I could only take in so

39:19

much and it was kind of more about you

39:23

know keeping my keeping my keeping my

39:25

head over the surface you know the water

39:27

surface and I think that it just wasn't

39:32

I just didn't have it in me so it wasn't

39:35

really a choice then but if I if I had

39:36

known I definitely next time I start a

39:40

company which I think I will do I will

39:42

I'm gonna think differently about it but

39:46

we didn't really work we didn't work

39:49

that much I mean our kids were

39:50

a little and we we we took we employed

39:53

kind of a lot of people so we didn't

39:56

really this thing that would

39:58

entrepreneurs work all the time in our

40:00

case wasn't true we had breakfast and

40:02

dinner every day together for a while

40:06

our office was just right in the street

40:08

behind our apartment we were in town

40:10

then we didn't have any traveling time

40:13

to work so so and then we since I think

40:16

one advantage working with your own

40:18

husband is also that you can really be a

40:20

team both at home and at work because we

40:22

knew exactly you know whose schedule was

40:23

more important and who has to be home

40:25

with a sick child so so I don't know

40:27

there it's and then I don't have small

40:32

kids anymore so I think next time when

40:34

they're a little older I think I'll

40:35

start another company and then I'll I

40:37

think I'll I mean it's it's a balance

40:42

all the time you know how many people do

40:43

you want working for you that is course

40:44

a higher cost but it's also a lower risk

40:47

for your health and I think the other

40:50

things in life are important too you

40:52

know just kind of fiddling around with

40:53

the piano or just having fun you know

40:56

laying a puzzle or doing something else

40:58

I would really believe in silence and

41:01

taking breaks and not working not

41:04

filling your day if down to the very

41:08

minute because then there's no room for

41:11

creativity or you know getting new

41:13

thoughts into your head I think that's

41:16

really important that's I mean if you

41:18

look at the creativity that's how

41:20

creativity works a lot of that takes

41:22

place and then subconscious especially

41:25

sleep I read an article about sleep

41:27

recently where they had mice they put

41:30

mice into a maze and they were going

41:32

through his mace and then it made a

41:34

sound if one sound if they took a right

41:36

turn and once another sound if they took

41:38

a left turn and then you could hear like

41:40

when they'd learn how to get out of the

41:42

mace there was this little melody

41:43

playing like you know you could

41:45

recognize the little melody of a success

41:46

and the interesting thing is that when

41:50

these mice went to sleep they kept

41:51

tracking that sound in their brain and

41:54

you could hear the same melody playing

41:57

but I think it was like it four times

41:59

the speed or something like that which

42:02

means that you learned during the day

42:03

but

42:04

and the mind practices at four or if it

42:06

was six times the speed when you sleep

42:08

oh yeah I believe in that and you're I

42:11

think any time when you're doing nothing

42:13

maybe including sleep I actually didn't

42:15

know that's that it was but I mean from

42:18

like meditation for example when you're

42:20

sitting doing nothing you're just like

42:21

you're hunter percent awake but you're

42:23

still in a kind of a resting position

42:25

then your brain is actually processing

42:27

the things you've taken in during the

42:29

day and sort of get into your long-term

42:30

memory and absolutely I think those

42:33

breaks are just as important as the

42:34

productive phases during the day before

42:37

our guests we should probably talk a

42:39

little bit about meditation because for

42:41

me that's one of the most important

42:43

tools in my tool kit really yes and I

42:46

only do ten minutes a day but it's still

42:49

the most important ten minutes of my day

42:50

I think Wow yeah I love talking about

42:54

meditation I think very few people

42:55

actually you know practice it because

42:57

that's what it is it's a practice and um

42:59

I was I started meditating almost 20

43:02

years ago it was in 1999 and I had

43:06

really bad problems with stress and I

43:08

thought I had a disease of some kind I

43:10

was really worried about it and I went

43:13

to see different doctors and they

43:13

couldn't find anything and then I

43:16

finally found some indicator that it was

43:20

stress-related and I try different

43:22

things I tried yoga and I started

43:23

reading books about I think I wanted to

43:26

see a homeopathy and and that made a big

43:28

difference and then that kind of opened

43:30

my mind to alternative things like with

43:33

outside the the like the regular

43:35

traditional regular traditional doctors

43:40

and that maybe maybe doctors can't solve

43:43

all problems and then I decided to give

43:45

meditation a chance and that's when I

43:47

really found something because it really

43:49

changed my life that's been one of the

43:51

milestones in my life how did it change

43:54

your life well I I got more done even

43:58

though I worked less it completely

44:00

changed my like taste for alcohol we

44:02

talked about the wine earlier today and

44:04

it all of a sudden it tasted stronger it

44:08

changed the taste in my mouth and I was

44:10

all of a sudden the fear I was afraid of

44:12

dogs it just went away with not

44:15

effortlessly I just found myself

44:17

a situation where I was kind of

44:19

wrestling with this big German Shepherd

44:21

and a stick and we were having so much

44:23

fun and then I was just wait a minute I

44:26

was afraid of dogs what happened to that

44:27

yeah gone and I was I was really worried

44:31

about a lot of stuff it was worried

44:32

about you know like my family members

44:35

getting sick back at the time I didn't

44:36

have children but I worried a lot about

44:39

everything about work and about you know

44:42

performance and what's going to become

44:44

of me and everything

44:46

there are several several aspects of

44:48

meditation of course but one way that I

44:51

you I have a lot of friends who are

44:53

engineers because I'm an ex engineer

44:55

myself but one way I explain it to them

44:57

or to computer programmers is that it's

44:59

like a computer program that you keep

45:01

running all the time you know in your

45:03

everyday life which is a top-level

45:04

language like C++ or Java or something

45:08

that has these functions for okay here

45:10

comes a dog I should run

45:12

here comes food I should eat you know

45:14

it's a high-level functions but when you

45:16

meditate you start looking at the lower

45:18

level computer language if you if you

45:20

will and where you don't have to run if

45:22

the dog is coming because you're not

45:24

running that code you're running it

45:25

you're looking at the you know and this

45:27

is just the computer or the brain

45:32

impulse coming in like this is a dog and

45:33

okay that's interesting let's look at

45:35

the dog you know and when you explain

45:38

that that to programmers they kind of

45:40

understand oh oh so that's what it is

45:42

who's going you know below and looking

45:44

at the actual code underneath and try

45:45

and understand why that code upstairs is

45:48

doing what it's doing and what's the

45:49

purpose of that and to me that's how I

45:51

got into meditation because I could see

45:54

like okay my my reaction to something is

45:57

stress or my at reaction to something is

45:59

running away or running towards it and

46:01

not then starting to question why or and

46:04

and you know how what the actual fear

46:05

looks like and trying to feel that this

46:08

was probably a detour but that's how I

46:11

got into it but then you get all these

46:13

other tools like stress when just the

46:15

brain impulses are firing all over the

46:18

place and you don't know what to do and

46:20

then you meditate for 10 minutes and

46:23

suddenly you could see clearly you know

46:27

the the it's like the noise going away

46:28

or something

46:29

exactly

46:30

it's kind of like you know like water on

46:32

the duck it just kind of rolls off you

46:35

that the stress yeah and as you can just

46:38

feel it leaving you somehow and there's

46:41

really no way of talk really talking

46:43

about meditation or describing it you

46:45

have to do it to really feel what the

46:47

benefits are yeah and I think definitely

46:50

10 minutes a day is much better than

46:52

going to a retreat once a year yeah I

46:54

know for me it's game-changing I would

46:58

say it sounds like 10 minutes is not a

47:00

lot but it's game changing its changing

47:02

my entire life and you know I can also

47:05

do longer meditations of course you know

47:07

sometimes but just that do the routine I

47:10

wake up meditate 10 minutes to go to the

47:11

gym and you know that changes everything

47:13

and I have this guy I read a lot a guy

47:18

called Sam Harris who wrote a book

47:20

called waking up he's a neuroscientist

47:22

and he has this very non mystical

47:27

approach to to meditation this is a very

47:31

like scientific approach to it almost an

47:34

n spiritual for now it's a spiritual

47:36

component of course but it's not it

47:38

doesn't take it now from from the

47:40

history books of India or something you

47:42

know it's more like a scientific

47:43

approach and I think a lot of people for

47:46

a lot of people that resonates that you

47:48

know they don't like the mystical stuff

47:50

but they could get into it through that

47:52

path and they could get all the benefits

47:54

of it I think one of the things that I'm

47:56

really impressed by your meditation

47:59

Walter is I can come here to the studio

48:01

and if you don't know we're recording in

48:04

Walters house and you can just say okay

48:08

I'll be right back I just need to I'm

48:10

just going to meditate for 10 minutes

48:12

and I often I'm when I'm in my work mode

48:18

I'm just like through this thing do the

48:21

next thing the five most important

48:23

things today and you're very good at

48:26

prioritizing saying okay I won't start

48:29

my day if I don't meditate and if I

48:32

don't exercise and that's just it's like

48:34

brushing your teeth or just saying it's

48:37

important it's like the door to life is

48:39

locked before you do those two things

48:41

yeah because I know I'll be so in effect

48:44

otherwise and not very happy and a

48:47

little bit grumpy

48:47

yeah but I'm for it for me I don't even

48:49

think about that I do it anymore I don't

48:51

have to plant it in my schedule or

48:52

anything I I meditate every morning 30

48:55

minutes

48:55

that's my minimum and then sometimes

48:57

again in the afternoon if I if either if

49:00

I a need it

49:01

too-hoo if I have time but that's I

49:06

don't even I don't I don't even think

49:07

about it it became kind of a practice

49:09

and a part of my my routine so many

49:12

years ago now I've been doing it for 19

49:13

years so Oh 20 years almost habits are

49:16

so but do you have a morning routine

49:18

that you do I know this is also

49:19

stereotypical question but I do love

49:21

morning routines yeah I love I like

49:23

routines routines shouldn't take over

49:25

but they're definitely very um restful

49:28

I would say I do have one one of the

49:32

things that I was very touched by and

49:36

also very interested in is when when

49:39

I've seen interviews with with your

49:42

husband and with you it always looked

49:44

like you guys were so you were so

49:47

balanced and that Victor had a very

49:50

positive outlook even though there was a

49:54

lot of negative things to think about

49:55

you know this was something I think it

49:57

was a gift he was born with because he

50:00

had kind of a rough background you know

50:01

growing up and he never some people are

50:04

just like that you know just like you

50:05

have a gift of your musical or you're

50:07

good in sports or already easy time

50:10

learning things he had a gift of being

50:12

quite happy and um even though he always

50:16

wanted to do things and yet high energy

50:19

he was just really really grateful for

50:20

what he had and that that was such a he

50:25

enjoyed his life so much even when he

50:28

was sick to the bitter bitter end

50:30

he was like days before he died he

50:33

wanted to sit with us during dinner he

50:34

couldn't even eat but he still sort of

50:36

felt like he was and he fell asleep all

50:39

the time he couldn't keep up his head

50:40

and and then all of a sudden you know we

50:42

would say his name and then he would

50:43

kind of like wake up a little bit and

50:45

say a few words he's kind of like an old

50:47

man then kind of like with his finger up

50:50

you know it like he because he couldn't

50:51

speak and I understand all that why old

50:53

people do those kind of things because

50:54

they can't quite you know the muscles

50:57

and their jaw

50:58

they can't articulate anymore because

50:59

just slowed down so much and it was kind

51:02

of seeing you know like seeing him aged

51:04

so many years like in just three months

51:06

it was really strange but he was always

51:09

so happy that whole vacation and this

51:12

was the summer of 2016

51:14

he died like the the last day or the

51:18

Thursday the Friday would be out it was

51:20

gonna be our last day on vacation he

51:21

died on the Thursday so he kind of

51:23

survived almost the whole vacation

51:26

against all odds and he enjoyed

51:28

everything even though he was really in

51:31

he was really really sick he had like a

51:33

four you know very high fever every

51:37

every single day and we couldn't get it

51:39

down with aspirin or anything so you

51:43

never complained ever do you think that

51:46

he lived longer because of his last

51:48

known state absolutely I'm sure of it

51:51

because they said that you know he

51:52

between two weeks and two months we

51:54

think he's gonna live after he got that

51:56

final diagnosing and now we can't you

51:58

know do anything anymore for him then he

52:02

lived seven months longer I saw an

52:05

interview that was just the most

52:07

incredible thing I've seen where he was

52:10

talking about I think you were talking

52:12

about on his behalf because his voice

52:14

didn't work at the time right and you

52:17

said that you know if if he got to the

52:19

hospital and I was not getting you know

52:21

not fun to be in the hospital and he got

52:23

in the top Thor he was talking about

52:25

that was great to be on the top floor

52:27

because he could see so much of the sky

52:29

or if he was in the bottom Thor that was

52:31

also great because you know now he was

52:33

close to the exit so there was always

52:35

something positive in every situation

52:37

seemed like it's great that you

52:39

remembered that I know he would that

52:40

that's the way he that was his look on

52:42

life you know but you know look at it

52:43

this way and even like when things that

52:45

make other people sad like you get

52:47

negative feedback from you know a

52:49

co-worker or something about something

52:51

you did and I could go home and you know

52:53

be really sad about and like just beat

52:55

myself up about it and you know almost

52:57

feel shame to go to work because someone

52:59

had said something that was I didn't do

53:01

perfect he would be like oh this

53:03

happened and then he'd you know think

53:05

about that for ten minutes and then he

53:06

would be it would be gone yeah those

53:09

stories I tell I told that's

53:11

about the two rooms to my my wife we're

53:16

not married but we're kind of married

53:17

we have two kids I told her that story

53:20

this morning because there was something

53:21

that was annoying her or something

53:23

and I just told her that story and I

53:25

just saw her change in front of my eyes

53:26

like that's that will stay with me

53:31

forever

53:31

one of the things that I think is a gift

53:35

to all the listeners that are listening

53:38

to this is just one sentence you have no

53:43

problems like defining what a problem is

53:48

I I think for myself I'm pretty good at

53:51

putting things behind me and putting

53:53

them to the side but I still can be

53:55

pretty easily

53:57

slightly pissed off if things happen or

54:00

beat myself up and just being really in

54:04

a great emotional state even though you

54:08

have problems understand that it's part

54:11

of life type problems and the only time

54:14

you don't have problems is after life

54:17

that's what my grandmother used to be

54:19

said the day you don't have any problems

54:21

that you're dead yeah and it's really it

54:24

is and most jobs also you're employed to

54:26

solve problems that's why you're there

54:28

you know to create value and solve

54:29

problems that's what life is about

54:31

you'll never be done even more true for

54:33

entrepreneurs yep you know because we

54:36

talk to be talk about that it feels like

54:38

in every episode now but how you wake up

54:40

every morning next to your problems and

54:42

you need to love those problems because

54:43

they'll be there and they're fun to

54:45

solve you know like when you find when

54:47

you solve one night it's great that we

54:49

get another one because what else would

54:50

you only do it with our days right and

54:52

that optimism I think is just we were

54:54

spoke about the values for our company

54:56

for the what's in the water company what

54:58

should our values be now and we were

55:00

like it's optimism is number one

55:02

creativity is possibly number two but if

55:04

we have only have one its optimism

55:06

because I think that's the key that's

55:08

just seeing every situation has bad

55:12

aspects of it and good aspects of it and

55:13

and just you know look at this

55:16

opportunities and just go for it I

55:17

learned from a guy called Tony Robbins a

55:20

long time ago he divided emotional

55:22

states into two states

55:24

beautiful states and suffering states

55:26

there are so many beautiful states like

55:29

excitement love or determination or

55:32

whatever or even sadness sadness can be

55:35

you can I think you can be sad in a

55:37

beautiful state I think you can be sad

55:39

in a suffering state as well and what I

55:42

think that a lot of people do is that

55:44

they have ten or twenty emotions half of

55:48

them makes them feel like and they

55:51

go in by habit to those emotions that

55:56

make them feel like and I think

55:57

that that is making that shift making a

56:01

decision and cutting everything off to

56:04

stay in a beautiful state is one of the

56:07

most important if not the most important

56:09

decision to make in life yeah that's it

56:11

it's there's so much more to like

56:14

managing your life and having a high you

56:16

know high level of intelligence because

56:18

that is being intelligent to actually

56:20

look at your emotions and try to try to

56:21

work with them and see things shift your

56:24

perspective we were thinking we were

56:26

talking earlier about these and you had

56:28

these three words to describe you know

56:30

what you wanted to do or or and I think

56:33

that like the change of perspective

56:34

there in the whole light your meaning

56:37

yes exactly I guess it's not three use

56:40

in English but educate challenge and

56:43

entertain yeah so so challenge was that

56:46

was the word I was looking for yeah I

56:49

think definitely that there's always

56:51

there was always some areas of

56:53

improvement like in the human psyche so

56:55

I think definitely there's progress to

56:57

be made there and I think one of the

56:59

things that I've learned is I've always

57:02

been feeling like what if I do this if

57:06

I'm fully me what will people think

57:09

about me and the more the braver I

57:12

become and the more me I show about me

57:15

the more inspired people become and and

57:19

it's so interesting how that works like

57:24

my gift to others is much stronger if I

57:29

just be myself I think so definitely to

57:32

being authentic yeah you can tell yeah

57:34

one thing I thought about was how when I

57:37

run around my

57:38

company and I had my partners I kept

57:40

calling especially one of my partners

57:42

all the time it was like he was like a

57:43

second you know I talked to him more

57:46

than he thought he spoke his wife and we

57:48

just talked all the time and whenever

57:49

there was a problem or whenever we were

57:51

celebrating or whenever every anything

57:53

really I called him and now today I have

57:55

the same relationship to Johan here yeah

57:57

whenever something I keep calling you on

57:59

and and I even when you were in bed in

58:01

Thailand with your wife you know I I

58:03

kept calling you and talking to you on

58:06

the phone and but we have one rule it's

58:08

okay to put your phone off it's okay to

58:11

call anytime the only thing is that if

58:14

you don't want to be disturbed just turn

58:15

your phone off yeah so that's our rule

58:17

but anyway so for you obviously that was

58:20

the same thing because it was your

58:22

husband

58:22

so you could always talk to him and then

58:25

suddenly there's no one to talk to

58:28

what happens then well I did I did

58:31

actually find people to talk to

58:33

like I in selling the business I

58:35

couldn't talk to him about that it was a

58:37

decision I had to make me for myself but

58:38

I I also realized I need help with this

58:41

I've never done it before so I but I

58:45

really missed that like day to day

58:47

discussions like discussing you know

58:49

just how was your day and all that kind

58:51

of stuff and I've been a little bit you

58:53

know out and in a new relationship but

58:55

in the beginning that was I think that

58:59

was one of the hardest things to

59:01

readjust to that I had no one to talk to

59:06

and I you know just to call him and you

59:09

know what do we do about this and just

59:10

making the decisions about the kids

59:12

should I say yes to this or not should

59:14

we pay for this or not

59:16

you know Lisa wants this much money for

59:18

for this and this and and I had to make

59:20

all those decisions by myself which was

59:22

really stressful so that was definitely

59:24

a problem so I called my parents and

59:27

Victor's big brother who was also a

59:30

father I talked to him a lot in the

59:32

beginning and I I mean I found other

59:33

people but it wasn't the same we can't

59:37

compare you know the kid the father of

59:39

the children with someone else to

59:41

discuss them with it just isn't but for

59:45

business I found other people in my

59:46

network yeah that still wasn't the same

59:49

either because they were not invested in

59:50

it most

59:51

and financially and it's easy to give

59:54

advice but to be in it and take a

59:56

decision that's best for everybody

59:58

that's a different thing so that was a

60:00

big loss as well what was the driving

60:04

force behind selling the company

60:06

security for me I I just couldn't sleep

60:11

with that much responsibility on my

60:12

shoulders I was there was just too much

60:15

you know I had my house I had my country

60:16

house and I had the company with these

60:18

like we had 24 employees I think at the

60:19

time and I was all by myself and I was I

60:23

was and just become a widow and the kids

60:25

were still you know quite small they

60:27

were like 10 12 and 14 so and they were

60:30

in grief and it was just too many it was

60:32

just too much for one person to carry

60:34

this burden so I am I quite quickly

60:39

decided to get that ball rolling like

60:41

after the funeral and all those you know

60:42

that paperwork that you had to do first

60:45

then I well then I came came back to

60:48

work a few months and then I started the

60:49

sales so the sales process quite quickly

60:52

in Sweden it's winter right now and life

60:57

is like the seasons I think where you

61:00

have winter then you have spring then

61:02

you have summer and then you have autumn

61:05

and then you have winter again what

61:08

advice would you give to entrepreneurs

61:12

that are both in autumn where they're

61:17

reaping all their successes and in

61:20

winter where things are very challenging

61:25

that questions was too hard that is that

61:29

is a hard question but I mean I never

61:30

really I guess I never really thought of

61:32

it like different days and I don't think

61:34

I'd like a day when we were struggling

61:36

and we had read he hit really rough

61:37

competition it was still it wasn't it

61:40

was still not like it was still fun to

61:41

go to work because we had other problems

61:44

to solve and it was quite exciting you

61:45

know for a long time we had our main

61:47

competitor we were like you know

61:48

coca-cola and Pepsi we were like what

61:50

are they gonna do now what are we gonna

61:51

do now it's like a remote coaster yeah

61:53

it was it was drama and it's like oh we

61:56

beat them with one day on the vegetarian

61:57

bag and then we would celebrate and then

61:59

there was like a you know they'd have

62:01

some product test on TV and we won

62:03

and the like the program leader there

62:05

would say that she used me that's food

62:08

and we were all sitting there like you

62:10

know we were at some soccer game and our

62:12

team and just you know scored a goal it

62:14

was it was them that the rough times

62:17

were also I think intellectually

62:19

challenging like what do we do and you

62:21

know just find it looking at all

62:22

different options and calculating and we

62:25

did a whole lot of calculating we didn't

62:27

just I think it was um it was foot that

62:34

was fun too you know it wasn't like we

62:36

were and even when we did really well I

62:39

really learned that later on like when

62:43

you're doing really well then you're

62:44

supposed to then you should save for the

62:46

rainy days you know to save money and

62:49

when you can and not think like in the

62:52

beginning I think especially my husband

62:54

was like no this is not five thousand

62:56

that's not that's not really money

62:58

that's just nothing and he was a big

63:00

spender and like we would go to these

63:02

really you know expensive conference

63:05

places like castles and invite our

63:07

employees to like really fancy dinners

63:10

in their own room and we didn't really

63:12

think that maybe we'll need this money

63:14

what I learned one thing many years ago

63:18

from a former entrepreneur he was I

63:21

think around 60 years old and he said to

63:23

me Joanne I focused on growth of my

63:27

business all my career all my business

63:31

career and we've never really

63:33

we've always reinvested all our money

63:37

into the business and then he got a

63:41

divorce and he couldn't even like buy

63:45

out his ex-wife because they didn't have

63:52

any money they had this they had this

63:54

company that had this large turnover but

63:57

they didn't have in cash and I and I

64:00

think that's very good advice that

64:01

you're giving to to also make sure to

64:05

have money for a rainy day

64:09

money's good yeah I think this is up

64:12

also place into a little bit what we

64:13

talked about before here on the on the

64:16

podcast how

64:17

politicians can or the political debate

64:20

can miss read the drivers of

64:22

entrepreneurs so it's not like a lot of

64:25

entrepreneurs they may have valuable

64:27

companies but they don't live a lavish

64:29

lifestyle outside of it necessarily and

64:31

is that's not the driver at all they

64:33

just want to build things and that place

64:36

him like how you how you tax companies

64:38

and you know I think the 312 tax is a

64:41

great example where they introduced new

64:43

tax just because they thought that

64:44

people are paying out dividends at a

64:46

lower tax rate rather than taking it as

64:49

a salary and that's the driver so we

64:51

need just we need to tax that to stop

64:53

them from doing that but that's not the

64:55

driver mantra preneur it's the driver

64:56

entrepreneurs is to build and and I

64:59

think just understanding that from a

65:00

political point of view and building the

65:02

rules and the tax system based on how do

65:05

we how do we stimulate as much creation

65:09

and growth as possible rather than how

65:12

do we stop people from you know evading

65:14

tax I think that would be very valuable

65:17

if you ask me about the political system

65:20

in Sweden but do you have any ideas for

65:22

if you were to talk to some politicians

65:25

today about how to stimulate

65:26

entrepreneurship in Sweden through a

65:29

different political or different

65:32

political ideas would you have any

65:33

advice for them definitely I think that

65:35

now I'm in a position where I'm I've

65:38

actually have a registered company but I

65:40

was going to give lectures but I have to

65:43

I have four different reasons mostly

65:45

that I need more people around me and it

65:47

my social needs are much larger than I

65:50

had then I had first estimated but I'm

65:53

not protected by if I get sick if I get

65:57

cancer I get nothing which i think is

66:00

wrong because it does take a while to

66:01

you know build to build up enough money

66:07

to be able to take out a salary and I

66:09

think that there should be some kind of

66:11

other rule should maybe apply so that

66:13

we're all so and all the money that I've

66:15

made in the last and all the jobs that

66:17

I've created that used to not be jobs at

66:20

all this thing with menu planning and

66:21

the cook you know the delivering to the

66:23

doorstep that these were jobs that

66:24

people did themselves I've actually

66:25

created these jobs and now I'm not

66:28

protected so if I'm if I get sick I've

66:29

got it I won't get a

66:30

single crown as a monthly income and I

66:34

don't think that's that's not a good I

66:37

should be a part of this after the taxes

66:39

I paid in 2017 yeah I should I should

66:42

this is I think a benefit that I should

66:44

have as well I think part of the entire

66:47

way of the countries like Sweden or the

66:53

Scandinavian countries are structured

66:54

they're structured to create safe

66:57

employment in large companies exactly

67:01

yeah and they are not struck the entire

67:03

country isn't structured to boost or

67:07

what we call supercharged

67:08

entrepreneurship so that we get

67:10

prosperity by people creating and

67:15

scaling great businesses that do good

67:18

for the world

67:19

yeah the listeners can't I can't see

67:20

that I'm nodding here I agree I agree

67:22

I'm nodding yeah I think that's been

67:27

important always but it's now it's gonna

67:29

be absolutely critical to get that in

67:31

order because we're the new jobs will

67:33

not come from the big companies not in

67:35

the face of automation and an AI and all

67:37

that but from new companies and new

67:39

ideas and innovations so that's

67:41

absolutely critical and I think we all

67:43

need to kind of change our views and

67:45

look at the entrepreneurs as a hero and

67:47

start building the hero brand so that

67:49

people people want to be heroes right so

67:51

we need to start building that brands

67:53

people want to become entrepreneurs for

67:55

everybody's sake you know for for the

67:58

school system and the welfare system and

68:00

everything you know it's gonna be

68:02

dependent on that and I think one more

68:04

factor to consider since I'm like by

68:07

myself and I'm supporting three children

68:10

on my own that has also been something

68:12

that I've weighed into the picture like

68:13

now I'm looking for a regular job and it

68:16

is one reason for that is that I and

68:18

there's there are a lot of one-person

68:20

households in Sweden and I think that

68:22

you know when you're sharing the risk of

68:23

someone else when I started my May

68:25

that's fitted then then you know we were

68:28

sharing the risk so it was I was gonna

68:30

do my thing for a while and he was going

68:31

to be he was gonna be on payroll you

68:34

know taking and getting a salary each

68:35

month and then that was a risk that we

68:37

could share but now I don't feel like I

68:41

can take that risk so definitely I think

68:43

I'm being

68:44

I'm being held back and that is of

68:46

course partly due to the system if I had

68:50

the same sort of like insurance kind of

68:52

situation like where I would get

68:53

something if something happened to me

68:55

then I might consider doing it now but

68:58

I'm not so sure of my my um my capacity

69:02

you know time capacity as a single

69:04

parent and that kind of complicates the

69:08

next step for me what one thing that we

69:10

talked about when we prepared this as

69:12

well is I had my sofa

69:14

it broke the other week so one of the

69:17

how do you call it the leg of the sofa

69:19

just broke and now there are four books

69:23

as the new leg of the sofa and I just

69:27

like I don't do a lot of things at home

69:31

in terms of and Tina doesn't either in

69:34

terms of fixing stuff so we always we

69:37

always get help in our home by Tina's

69:40

father that's very good at stuff like

69:42

that but I think still something we

69:44

talked about is that it's not very easy

69:46

to get the kind of help that you need to

69:50

put also the hours into the business

69:52

that might be needed I think I have 20

69:55

things in my house that need to be fixed

69:56

right now and um that that is something

69:59

that should be I mean everyone knows

70:02

about you can buy cleaning services you

70:03

can buy the ready plan grocery bags but

70:05

after that it's kind of like you run out

70:07

a little bit of services to buy and I

70:11

mean I can't I can't really buy myself

70:13

help with the parenting only I can do it

70:16

or only I can do it like I'm like a

70:18

mother so but I think that it's going to

70:22

be interesting to see if there are more

70:23

more services I think that like for

70:26

example all the photos that people have

70:27

you know that people have on their

70:29

phones and that and they change phones

70:31

and then they're just kind of like you

70:33

know to maybe create books and albums

70:35

out of these there can I think that

70:37

things are going to pop up where where

70:39

and there's something called rent a

70:41

husband I think you know people that you

70:43

have a that you have someone coming

70:45

around and can help you with I'll be

70:47

like it with your couch or whatever

70:48

that's a little tricky brand situation

70:52

there with rental husband I think okay

70:54

okay no not for me but I just think the

70:56

name is a little bit

70:57

oh you mean it's I don't know there's

71:00

something about it if what if we say we

71:01

rent a wife they'll be terrible right

71:03

yeah I thought of that but you know what

71:08

we'll bring them on the show and talk to

71:10

them about that brand name but there's

71:12

also a company called yep stir I think

71:13

there's something along those lines

71:15

which has like you can have like young

71:18

people coming to cut your grass or

71:20

whatever it is and we are gonna have

71:22

them on the show I think we've talked

71:24

them I think that people who are really

71:26

bored with their jobs should ask

71:28

themselves two questions like what are

71:30

you good at what do you enjoy doing and

71:33

if you can find something there and then

71:34

make a list of problems that you see in

71:36

society and see if you can find a match

71:38

you know like all the problems you can

71:40

you can see and then see what do you

71:42

what am I good at what do I enjoy doing

71:43

and maybe you can find a bridge between

71:45

these and then go out find a problem I

71:49

think I read that in Jordan Peterson's

71:51

book that is now the most sold book in

71:52

the world that has 12 rules of life yeah

71:55

he says you know go find a problem solve

71:57

it yeah you know do something really

72:00

good advice in that book but it's a

72:01

tough read I think I've tried to read it

72:04

I haven't gone through it either

72:06

it's afraid some of its tough some of

72:08

its really easy reading yeah but I think

72:11

I think that's a very simple and yet

72:14

extremely powerful advice when it comes

72:17

to entrepreneurship is to the people by

72:21

solutions to problems they do and that's

72:25

that's like a universal truth and then

72:28

sometimes they don't know that they have

72:30

the problems when you don't know that

72:32

you can have ready food dinner kit your

72:36

dinner kids ready plan groceries yeah to

72:39

your home you won't think that you

72:42

needed right I know you you're very

72:45

interested in like you know digital

72:46

detox and that kind of thing yeah and we

72:50

we are - I you know the just a cognitive

72:53

overload in society right now is

72:55

unbearable to a lot of people and I'm

72:58

sure it causes all kinds of problems you

73:01

know but it does actually people check

73:03

their phones 18 times a day just to see

73:05

what time it is so maybe go out and buy

73:08

watch yeah instead yes and not be

73:10

distracted

73:11

you've studied this a lot Annalise can

73:13

you share some just interesting ideas

73:16

and thoughts and conclusions well yeah I

73:19

am well I experienced it myself how you

73:21

know how distracting it was too hot you

73:25

just have a smartphone and especially

73:27

some of the apps like the social media

73:30

maybe news that are extra sticky that

73:34

you know you find yourselves just

73:35

engaging in too much because it it turns

73:38

out that we you know we spend three

73:39

times as much time on the apps that we

73:41

don't find meaningful and enjoyable or

73:44

that we you know we're not happy with

73:45

our consumption of these apps yet we

73:47

spend that much time but then like there

73:50

are other apps that are that we're very

73:52

happy with like swish you know there's

73:53

no risk of staying and swish too long

73:56

right or them or Maps or exercise apps

73:59

or reading apps or their because they're

74:01

they feel meaningful but dating apps and

74:05

games and news that can just kind of

74:07

like just eat you up and it's also the

74:12

number of distractions during a day

74:14

makes it really hard to go into that

74:17

deep that deep state of mind that I

74:20

think is needed if you want to be

74:22

creative if you want to solve difficult

74:24

problems there's no more the problems

74:26

again but it's really hard to like see

74:28

all aspects of a problem if you're

74:30

constantly you know have your phone and

74:33

your kids might call and I hear that a

74:35

lot and working life you know my kids

74:37

have to be able to reach me and then I

74:38

have to ask you know just challenge why

74:41

yeah this has a high price to always be

74:44

able to be reached by your kids I used

74:46

to let my kids call me all the time and

74:47

and finally I realized this isn't worth

74:49

it because I can't just just the fact

74:52

that the knowledge and I know that the

74:54

phone is on and I can be disturbed is

74:56

actually taking a part of my brain it's

74:59

bothering me so I can't quite think I

75:01

can't relax I can't be present starting

75:05

with the back like with the back to the

75:07

door almost you know somebody can come

75:08

in at any time here yeah and I think

75:10

that it's just also I mean it's just

75:12

rude to the person you're sitting with

75:15

or what you're at whatever you're doing

75:16

you're not doing it as well as you could

75:18

have been if you're in if you have your

75:20

whole I'm reading book right now it's

75:22

called bring your whole self to work

75:24

they talk a lot about you know employees

75:26

bringing their work home and constantly

75:29

being on you know reachable and that's

75:32

hard to relax but it's also people bring

75:33

their private to work and that's a

75:36

problem I think in meetings but also you

75:38

know having the phone just by the

75:39

computer and solving their private stuff

75:43

when they're working and you know like

75:46

half the visits on him net it's the

75:47

Sweden's biggest website for selling

75:52

apartments and houses people spend a lot

75:54

of time just you know escaping the

75:56

moment and dreaming of a house that they

75:58

can't afford and people click these you

76:01

know these really expensive houses and

76:03

they're not out there to show off their

76:04

that they're not really even solving a

76:06

problem they're just kind of wasting

76:08

time there's a series I'm watching right

76:11

now on Amazon Prime and I'm struggling

76:15

to remember the exact title but it's

76:16

something with mrs. Mason the incredible

76:19

mrs. Mason or something like that it's

76:21

about a female stand-up comedian in the

76:25

late 50s and I was just watching that

76:29

and I was sitting there with Julia

76:30

talking about it and it was like hot it

76:32

just hit me look at all these people

76:33

sitting here in this bar with the

76:36

stand-up comedian and nobody has a

76:37

smartphone at this point so everybody's

76:40

actually there with the friend they came

76:43

with listening to this show not taking

76:46

pictures not taking selfies not tweeting

76:49

about it they're there and that's really

76:52

rare today that almost never happens

76:54

today and we got jealous me and Julia

76:56

because I think it's actually really sad

76:58

that it's gone too far and I don't think

77:01

we've reached the bottom yet I think it

77:03

just KITT seems to continue and it's and

77:05

especially young people are just

77:06

miserable I think and because they're

77:08

not seeing enough of each other and in

77:11

real life and they're spending too much

77:12

of their their their days behind screens

77:15

in their room alone yeah and this is all

77:18

over the world so it's I mean I would

77:21

really like to find a role somewhere a

77:23

platform where I can contribute to this

77:24

problem because I do think it's a I mean

77:27

technology is great and we should use it

77:29

the right way but it we shouldn't let it

77:30

take over us and I think it and and boss

77:33

us around we should boss it around

77:36

so it's something that I feel very

77:39

strongly about and I've been you know

77:40

accumulating knowledge over the last

77:43

year you know everything I've read about

77:46

addiction I read about you know

77:47

creativity how it affects that and how

77:49

it effects relationships how it affects

77:51

teams at work and our ability to solve

77:55

problems it actually does you know

77:57

reduce our IQ by a number of points just

77:59

you know having the phone on we're not

78:01

going to do as well on those tests so

78:03

there's an there's a lot already the

78:06

that has been done to prove that that

78:08

it's affecting us negatively we had a

78:11

guest on a couple of weeks ago Ekaterina

78:13

Gossage and she recently wrote a book

78:16

called social brain no was a fear book

78:19

right

78:20

no the fear book is the new one that's

78:22

not out going to check on my phone what

78:24

the book was called that's probably good

78:26

out later let's do that it's the book on

78:30

it's the book on about this topic I

78:32

think it's called brain balance

78:33

yeah imbalance brain box okay yeah did

78:36

you read that no but I it's in my

78:37

bookshelf on my on my story tell so I've

78:39

been thinking about I have actually

78:41

listened to part of it not the whole

78:42

thing yet she's also on recently and

78:45

this was a coincidence but she's also on

78:47

my wife's podcast baby cows talking

78:50

about the because in that book she

78:52

addresses what that has to do with

78:54

children and you know at what age starts

78:56

yeah yeah problem brain Berlin brain

78:59

balance yes

79:00

is it also available in English sure I

79:02

don't know no but it should be now I've

79:06

read so much that I'm starting to like

79:07

repeat like I I've heard this already

79:09

I've heard this already and ever since

79:11

like then I don't know if you read a bit

79:14

you've heard about that marshmallow test

79:16

I don't yeah there's there's just a lot

79:19

coming out right now about you know came

79:22

shared the marshmallow test for someone

79:24

that hasn't heard it yeah this was a

79:26

test that started and I don't know in

79:27

what year and I think it's debt was

79:29

Stanford where they would put

79:31

four-year-olds in in kind of an

79:32

experimental environment and and they

79:35

got two choices you know you can even

79:36

either have this one marshmallow or you

79:39

can wait until I get back the leader of

79:41

this experiment would say to the child

79:42

and then if you can wait that long you

79:44

can have to and it was just it was it

79:47

wasn't really only marshmallows I read a

79:48

whole book about this it was like all

79:49

different kinds

79:50

rewards but that was one of the things

79:51

anyway and then and they saw that this

79:54

the results of this test being able to

79:56

wait being able to like push like a

79:59

having your you know your needs met a

80:01

little later just being able to wait was

80:04

a very strong indicator of future

80:07

success in their lives much more so than

80:09

IQ or you know grades or anything like

80:13

that which makes a lot of sense but it

80:15

makes sense this book this out now makes

80:17

it so much more interesting though

80:18

because it takes it like and that what I

80:21

heard I know if it was in the book or

80:24

not but that it's also it could be also

80:26

that the kids that wanted the

80:28

marshmallow right away were the kids

80:30

that didn't get that many marshmallows

80:31

they came from poor homes you know and

80:34

then they didn't they didn't have the

80:35

same social support from home you know

80:41

in their careers and maybe trust there

80:43

was also trust you know they did they

80:44

didn't trust adults right I'm not gonna

80:47

get to yeah it's not them it's not a

80:49

really effective I can wait or not so

80:51

there were more perspectives to it than

80:52

that yeah but still I mean even so I

80:54

think this that there's a value to the

80:57

story in itself just a story about the

80:59

marshmallow and the value of being able

81:01

to postpone gratification exactly delay

81:06

gratification that's the word I was

81:07

looking for right yeah I didn't I got

81:10

postponed I got close to you late but

81:12

not quite yeah but anyway the lady

81:17

gratification I think is the term that

81:18

they use but just the value of of that I

81:22

think is a great lesson for everybody

81:25

and it's valuable even though it may not

81:26

be the entire truth about the

81:28

marshmallow test exactly there was these

81:30

tests are still going on so this is

81:33

wasn't just like a one-time thing this

81:34

was like a series of experiments but I

81:36

think that the the delay gratification

81:37

makes a lot of sense in taking control

81:40

over your smartphone because if you know

81:43

you know the smartphone has so much to

81:46

offer in terms of surprise and

81:48

unpredictability variation you don't

81:51

know what you're going to get and our

81:53

brain you know remembers that it once

81:55

got a reward and it might get a reward

81:56

if we look at it again even though we

81:58

just looked at it 10 seconds ago so if

82:01

you can just delay that because you know

82:02

that if there's an email in

82:04

there or say that your um something

82:07

really good that could happen you know

82:08

your company has gotten a certain award

82:10

or you know someone that you find

82:12

attractive it wants to ask you out on a

82:13

date or something you know it's still

82:14

going to be there if you just wait till

82:16

the end of the work day yeah but it's

82:18

also and the flip side of that is

82:20

delayed suffering right so if I can look

82:22

at the see like oh now I have this email

82:24

from my lawyer I know that's probably

82:27

not good and I don't open it until later

82:31

and that's most times that's a bad idea

82:33

it's a better idea to just open it and

82:35

see what it is and put it on a to-do

82:37

list or something so I don't have to

82:38

think about it but they haven't

82:40

addressed that in the marshmallow test I

82:42

don't think no they haven't because it

82:44

can but you know the whole thing with it

82:46

like the smartphone is kind of like I

82:48

think it kept anti-ghost be cheap and

82:49

says that it's like a bowl of candy yeah

82:50

I think she says it's you know so hard

82:53

to just walk past it it's so hard to

82:54

just take one it read like a slot

82:56

machine the slot machine is considered

82:58

one of the most addictive you know

83:00

device has ever made because you don't

83:03

know what you're gonna get so even if

83:04

there could be suffering it's the

83:06

excitement of not knowing you know if we

83:08

knew every time we opened the phone we

83:10

would get a special reward then we then

83:12

we wouldn't trigger that part of our

83:14

brain I used that term when I've been in

83:16

advertising for ten years and when this

83:18

whole Instagram thing came and we talked

83:21

a lot about stopping power the stopping

83:24

power in a scrolling feed and I can

83:28

sometimes I feel guilty about having

83:30

done all this work on having the maximum

83:32

amount of stopping power but we use the

83:35

term I think it may have coined it I'm

83:38

not sure but I talked about sugar

83:40

scrolling that people were sugar

83:42

scrolling so they're not there for the

83:44

actual nutritional value of the

83:46

information they're just there to have

83:49

the sugar rush right now and and then

83:52

you when you have too much sugar you

83:53

feel bad this is kind of good analogy

83:55

for that's a great metaphor I like that

83:57

a lot because it's like it's like so

83:59

unintentional you just go in you just

84:01

find yourself scrolling and you're

84:03

clicking on links and you know you're

84:05

reading an article and you and all of a

84:08

sudden you just you're somewhere else

84:09

yeah because you clicked on a few links

84:11

and you saw something and then it's

84:12

something beeps or worse for that yeah

84:17

yeah because you just keep going there's

84:18

just so many interesting things and you

84:20

got I think you got to sit down and you

84:21

guys said that you you would start your

84:23

week by planning it or something and

84:24

planning isn't that fun but it really

84:26

makes you more efficient I think to

84:28

decide okay this week we're going to do

84:29

these three things so maybe your next

84:32

company will be like the equivalent of

84:34

the ready play planned meal with the

84:37

great nutritional value and everything

84:39

but for information for information we

84:41

figure that out somehow maybe that's

84:44

just a book yeah it's difficult kind of

84:47

like crap you know solving the the

84:50

obesity problem you know everyone knows

84:52

how to lose weight you just eat less

84:53

right but how do you get people to do it

84:55

that's kind of that's kind of what it's

84:57

all about you tax the right things so

85:00

you tax sugar you tax all of that and

85:03

like so sure you're not sure because I

85:07

don't know I'm not sure it's that easy

85:10

no one always talks about that you

85:12

should tax the things you want less of

85:14

so if what happens if you tax

85:15

entrepreneurship harder you get less and

85:18

premiership right and I think I think in

85:22

in terms of some some things like the

85:26

government has understood it like with

85:29

tobacco etc but I think I think in terms

85:32

of in terms of sugar I think there

85:37

should be a big sugar tax I know you can

85:40

gain weight on bread and you know maybe

85:42

a bread butter and cream and meat and

85:45

you can eat too much anyway yeah and you

85:47

sit we sit on our when we sit too much

85:49

yeah but sugar is a killer though

85:52

there's very little things about sugar

85:54

that's good right yeah that's true

85:55

tastes good

85:56

yeah not even that actually you can get

85:59

used to I don't really like the taste of

86:01

sugar that much anymore or candy it's

86:04

kind of a you can condition yourself not

86:06

to like that they can but people don't

86:09

typically so you're what from where you

86:13

are now how do you see your future what

86:16

are you looking forward to the most in

86:19

your life right now building a stable

86:22

family or there's hopefully a man in the

86:24

picture I want to feel secure and at the

86:28

same time do meaningful work and I think

86:29

the first few years for me

86:30

that will be as an employee for somebody

86:32

and then maybe in a couple years I think

86:35

that I will start another company and

86:37

I'm not sure it will be a company that I

86:40

don't know it depends on you know what

86:42

ideas will get it coming to my head but

86:44

maybe it'll be more of a you know just

86:46

supporting supporting myself kind of

86:48

company and just selling my time or I

86:51

don't know but I'm I would like to do

86:55

another like like a project like me

86:57

nested and start some kind of a

86:59

revolution of some kind because I but

87:02

you need an idea for that so but I'm

87:04

thinking a lot about this thing with the

87:06

digital distractions that that really

87:07

are creating so many problems that's

87:10

something that I've been thinking about

87:11

another thing is is loneliness since

87:13

I've actually suffered from that myself

87:15

and I never thought I would just since

87:19

I'm now not on the work market either

87:22

then loneliness can really like be and I

87:25

it's been such a short time in my life

87:27

but I know that like there's so many so

87:29

many people out there feeling lonely

87:31

most of the time or all the time and

87:34

this is not just in Sweden you know the

87:36

UK they just appointed a loneliness

87:38

minister because it's such problems and

87:41

loneliness Eponine ago speech rights

87:45

about that I think in the in her book

87:47

the social brain that loneliness is

87:49

actually more hazardous to your health

87:51

then then smoking 15 cigarettes a day or

87:54

something like that it's it's very

87:55

seriously correlated to your lifespan so

88:00

it's that's absolutely true and and I

88:02

think now the in the recent years

88:04

meditation has become a huge business

88:07

with meditation apps and all that and so

88:10

that that market is pretty saturated by

88:13

now I think but maybe the loneliness

88:15

bringing people together no it's gonna

88:17

be the tagline yeah so and I don't want

88:20

to do dating that's saturated as well

88:22

yeah or I don't know maybe not because I

88:24

don't think the dating service I don't

88:26

know if there's time to even dwell into

88:28

this but I think that's not for

88:30

everybody

88:30

no and it's also I think there are more

88:33

ways of and I think there's also other

88:35

kinds of lonely so it's not necessarily

88:36

that you're looking for a romantic

88:38

partner it could be other you know you

88:39

need other social contacts in your life

88:43

and I

88:44

think that there's there's just so many

88:45

people that that need somebody and to

88:49

bring them together in a and in the

88:51

screens that we're using is not exactly

88:53

helping it there is it does create

88:55

opportunities like you can meet people

88:57

with common interests you might have a

88:59

you know a diagnosis in common or you

89:01

have an interest in common or or

89:04

whatever but it's really um

89:05

they say that them geographic closeness

89:09

or whatever is more important to French

89:10

the building friendship than having

89:12

interests in common like the people that

89:14

you have close by

89:16

they've even looked at this at you know

89:17

at Stanford and the people who had the

89:20

dorms or they lived into that had the

89:22

rooms like that every most more people

89:24

would pass we're actually more popular

89:26

than those who had a had a room at the

89:28

far end of the corridor it makes sense

89:30

yeah and then the ones who were who had

89:32

the rooms next to each other or more

89:34

likely to be best friends because you

89:36

know yeah the continuity is so important

89:38

and I think all these things are just so

89:40

interesting and I if I could start a

89:42

company with a tagline bringing people

89:43

together I would that wouldn't really

89:45

nobody's that's so hard coded into our

89:47

DNA because we are we are dependent on a

89:50

social context otherwise we don't

89:52

survive on the Savannah with our you

89:53

know it's a thin skin and and tiny claws

89:57

you know yeah so we really need that and

90:00

and when you feel alone that's very

90:03

stressful for people but it's and it's

90:05

also reason that it's connected to state

90:07

a stigma because people are so afraid of

90:09

it and they're ashamed of it too yeah

90:11

ashamed of it and and afraid of it and

90:14

and you're kind of afraid of if

90:16

somebody's too lonely you'd only get too

90:17

close maybe because then you can be

90:19

dragged into that loneliness and people

90:21

are so afraid of that which makes sense

90:23

from an evolutionary perspective but

90:26

with our like our modern-day

90:28

understanding we should be able to

90:30

address that and and I feel we still

90:33

haven't done that really all right

90:36

I agree I have a prediction I see a

90:39

great company in your future

90:42

oh great literate and I I don't have the

90:45

specific one but I see a company being

90:48

in your future started yeah and if

90:50

there's anything we can do to help you

90:52

with that just please let us know yeah I

90:55

think I can feel it like it's it's

90:57

there's a little

90:57

seed growing because I still like I said

91:00

I feel my energies coming back to

91:02

because I you know I said like after my

91:05

husband died I really couldn't even read

91:07

anymore for a while I just was my brain

91:12

wasn't working like it normally does I

91:15

think was shut down and it took a while

91:16

to build that up again and and I think

91:18

it was more I had it you know take care

91:22

of you know write responsibilities and

91:24

feed the kids and putting just the

91:25

basics and now I'm kind of coming up out

91:28

of that hole that I had fallen into and

91:30

I'm ready to you know dig into something

91:32

and I think that it'll be a good first

91:35

step for me just to get out in working

91:36

life and find a group just to feel like

91:39

I'm a part of a group and not feel that

91:40

loneliness and just to be surrounded by

91:43

adults yeah it's just for me luxury

91:45

going to lunch we can do lunch - we can

91:49

set up lunch but it's it's been

91:52

absolutely fantastic to have you here

91:54

super inspirational and the energy that

91:58

surrounds you is fantastic so I think

92:00

you know please let us know if we can

92:03

help you with anything going forward and

92:05

thank you so thank you so much thanks

92:08

for thanks for having me thank you for

92:12

listening to what's in the water

92:14

our ultimate goal with this podcast is

92:17

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92:19

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92:22

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92:25

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92:29

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92:58

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93:01

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93:03

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93:06

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93:08

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93:11

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93:14

what's in the water

93:16

[Music]