Brand Religion with POC & Cake Founder Stefan Ytterborn

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Stefan Ytterborn is the product- and branding genius founder behind the protective gear brand POC and more recently the all electric cross motorcycle Cake. In this long and super-dense episode we talk about building companies, selling companies, product design, branding, PR, and a lot more. If you're anything like us, you may end up listening to this more than once, because there is just so much pure gold in here for every entrepreneur and intrapreneur out there. So get your notepad out and get ready to learn!

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Transcript

Note: This is an auto-generated transcript that will butcher words and names sometimes (Our favorite is when our guest Johannes Cullberg became “Your Hummus Cool Bye”). The format is not optimized for reading, but for searching for specific segments. Hence the timestamps etc. Happy searching!

[Music]

00:02

welcome back to what's in the water the

00:05

podcast where we sit down and chat with

00:08

some of the most inspiring people in

00:10

Scandinavia to understand the secrets of

00:13

their success as always we are on a

00:16

mission to supercharge entrepreneurship

00:19

in Scandinavia and the world because our

00:22

success in this area will determine the

00:25

prosperity of the next 25 years this

00:29

week is the spot blows betcha sports

00:32

vacation week in the part of Sweden that

00:35

includes Stockholm this means that a lot

00:38

of people will be hitting the slopes on

00:40

skis and snowboards this week and for

00:43

those of you sitting in a ski lift right

00:45

now you can look around you and you'll

00:48

see a lot of helmets and goggles with a

00:50

logo that says P o see on them this

00:56

brand is an incredible Swedish success

00:58

story with fantastic products and

01:01

stunning design our guest today is

01:04

stefan de born the creator of POC stefan

01:10

left the company a while back to start

01:12

cake that make groundbreaking electric

01:16

cross motorcycles with great performance

01:18

and again just like with park amazing

01:22

futuristic design this episode turned

01:26

out to be massively dense we talked

01:29

about building companies selling

01:31

companies product design branding PR

01:35

company culture and a lot of other

01:38

things that are pure gold for any

01:40

entrepreneur or entrepreneur out there

01:43

and we bring you Stefan with

01:47

[Music]

02:10

welcome Stephan born thank you so much

02:14

is that how you pronounce it I in

02:17

Swedish for sure and if someone who's

02:20

not speaking Swedish depending on their

02:21

language I've heard numerous you know

02:24

ways of doing it but I liked the way you

02:28

introduced me so thank you so you're

02:30

coming here on a very snowy and icy day

02:33

did you ride your electric Cross

02:36

motorcycle I wish I did I actually

02:39

arrived with my three BMW which is a

02:42

must of course I need to be electric and

02:45

it's interesting isn't it's nearly as

02:47

fun I would guess in a small electric

02:50

car like that in this in this conditions

02:52

because it's it's like a soap in the

02:55

shower I mean it's crazy not super

02:57

exciting more problematic I would say

03:00

but next time I will arrive on a

03:02

motorbike no matter what what the

03:05

weather conditions would be we are

03:06

looking forward to that because we want

03:08

to try those bikes out yeah and I hate

03:10

myself for not preparing this barrier in

03:12

that sense because we just put spikes on

03:14

on on one our bikes there you know three

03:17

centimeter long spikes and it's amazing

03:19

on the on the ice it's like you know

03:21

you're gonna love it so for people who

03:23

don't know Stefan he's created an

03:25

amazing future looking cross motorcycle

03:30

running on electricity is that it's not

03:32

how you destroy it describe your product

03:34

yes pretty much I mean we do it we've

03:37

launched our first products the first

03:40

platform which is a you know with the

03:42

ambition of establishing a new category

03:44

defined as light quiet and clean and

03:46

basically what we've done is that we we

03:50

came to understand on this journey that

03:53

if you want to optimize the performance

03:54

of a two-wheeled motorbike with an

03:57

electric drivetrain you need to build

03:59

super light so with my experience from

04:02

from bicycles and stuff we went all-in

04:04

when it comes to alloys and carbon fiber

04:06

and whatever to make sure that we

04:08

establish something in terms of geometry

04:10

sizing and so forth and at this point

04:13

there is something that is amazingly you

04:16

know the way it performs

04:17

is fantastic and it's only you know 68

04:20

kilos compared to an equivalent

04:22

combustion motor bike for overall users

04:24

would be nearly twice the weight so

04:26

super interesting yes so it's about it's

04:28

about the same performance as a 250 I

04:30

would say that if it's dry because there

04:33

is a difference between combustion

04:34

engines and electric drivetrains and

04:36

that sounds because if you'd be on a

04:38

off-road combustion engine bike there's

04:41

a lot of you know touching a high rpm

04:44

just you know forcing yourself through

04:47

swamps and whatever it might be electric

04:50

is different it likes pretty much the

04:52

same you know habitat or world war or

04:54

Awards running as you would you know

04:57

bb's cycling if you were on a mountain

04:59

bike where they're so dry trails and so

05:01

forth is as much you know it's pretty

05:04

much where it performs it at its best it

05:06

works in swampy conditions as well but

05:08

on that kind of you know dry trail like

05:11

terrain you know the the the pros would

05:16

say mmm tight you know it this is the

05:19

time time get tight match it's it's

05:21

potentially us beating into 50

05:24

combustion engine that's pretty

05:25

impressive and that's with half the

05:27

weight yes and that's that's really

05:29

what's you know that that's the the

05:31

greatest upside I would say the despite

05:33

the fact that you know no need for

05:36

clutching changing gears no nearly

05:40

silent and the fact that that you know

05:43

again there's it's super light so anyone

05:46

can ride in our sounds which opens up

05:49

for a lot of new users that normally

05:50

would not dare to because they don't

05:52

have the experience or the whole concept

05:54

of motorcycling is like scary so it

05:59

interesting perspective on what the

06:00

future market matrix will be and if you

06:05

would compared to a motorcycle for

06:07

someone that isn't a motorcycle person

06:10

how many horsepowers would it be it

06:12

peaks at close to 15 kilowatts which is

06:15

pretty much equal to 21 horsepower and

06:19

that said 21 on between 18 and 21

06:25

because the electric drivetrain has

06:26

different you know curves in terms of

06:29

how things are being measured but again

06:30

on a 68

06:31

kela bike it's it's a lot so but that

06:35

also changes the dynamics of the bike

06:37

and the handling and everything yeah

06:38

yeah yeah the whole experience yeah and

06:40

that's the beauty because you know again

06:43

I love what I'm doing I've learned to

06:45

you know to route dry enduro bikes and

06:48

in this passage getting into what I'm

06:50

doing I had to you know jump on the the

06:53

whose corners and your bikes and have

06:56

someone you know telling me how to

06:58

develop my skills but I'm not a great

07:02

reference the greatest reference are

07:03

those guys you know winning the world

07:05

championships and you know that we've

07:07

had in the development process and

07:09

they're like hey Stefan I would easily

07:11

change this bike well you know with my

07:14

combustion and bike any day because it's

07:16

a different feeling and it's better yeah

07:19

it's it I'd say it I'm sure that there

07:22

will always be heavy of road bikes

07:25

performing according to how combustion

07:28

ending motorbikes

07:29

for off-road use or you know how they

07:31

perform and that would always be

07:32

preferred in some context and I think

07:34

that it'll be a number of you know will

07:38

get to the point where electric can also

07:40

you know copy or imitate exactly what

07:43

the combustion engine experience is but

07:45

again and I'm gonna tell you a little

07:47

story or which really convinced me when

07:49

I started out this whole journey because

07:50

what I did was basically getting

07:53

everything that was in the market in

07:54

terms of electric just to try to

07:55

understand what you know what's good

07:57

what's bad and so forth and I got a

07:59

number of motorbikes from the

08:01

motorcycling industry like traditional

08:03

motorbikes and what they do is basically

08:06

swapping the the the combustion onions

08:09

with the electric drivetrain it's

08:10

exactly the same geometry weight and

08:11

everything they're very amazing to ride

08:14

and you have the benefits of not having

08:16

to change gears and clutch tonight but

08:18

that's something that most people will

08:20

learn pretty fast so it's that a real

08:22

benefit no I think they were missing out

08:24

on the actual benefits what really

08:25

inspired me in that sense well it was a

08:27

number of small players I mean Garage

08:29

brands guys create and welding stuff

08:32

together and they made these hybrids

08:34

they used you know mountain bike stuff

08:37

together with with with motorbikes stuff

08:39

welding that together and you know

08:41

establish to this you know to some

08:44

extent you know

08:45

like a soapbox car kind of thing and

08:46

they put the logo on it and sold it and

08:49

the thing was that that they were

08:51

amazing unfortunately unfortunately did

08:54

the bike where the cycling stuff is too

08:56

weak and the motorbike stuff is too

08:57

heavy but that really inspired me and

08:59

that's when you know I had those at my

09:01

country house in Gatlin for a number of

09:03

years and I had anything from world

09:06

champion you know off-road guys riding

09:09

getting back to me saying stuff and this

09:10

is this is amazing it's unique like it's

09:13

more like powder skiing through the tree

09:14

through the trees than anything else and

09:16

but I'd say that the most rewarding or

09:20

convincing experience that was when I

09:22

had like 20 year old girls trying these

09:24

bikes for the first time and they'd

09:26

never ever been on a motorbike before so

09:28

you know cautiously putting on a helmet

09:30

goggles and boots and you know idling

09:32

away really slowly and then you know 20

09:36

minutes later coming back to me at high

09:38

speed sliding in front of me with the

09:40

biggest smile you can think of saying

09:41

hey stuff and this is the most amazing

09:43

thing I've done in my life that's what

09:45

really convinced me because that really

09:47

you know emphasized how this is going to

09:50

flip the motorcycling industry and the

09:52

market there's gonna be new vehicles new

09:55

users and all of those you know

09:58

challenges of disturbance pollution

10:01

maintenance and so forth they're history

10:04

so in that sense I saw the opportunity

10:06

and this opportunity had of course kind

10:09

of chiseled further and and I have a

10:13

much clearer vision and view on this

10:15

stuff then I had when this started you

10:17

know when I started thinking about the

10:18

opportunity speaking of Gotland when we

10:21

then see you in Gatlin Grand National

10:24

which is a very big context yes I think

10:26

that we need to establish a new category

10:28

which is not you know again on this path

10:31

Gotham Grand National was an interesting

10:33

event on the Saturday when the actual

10:37

race was taking place it was a terrible

10:39

you know the conditions were it was

10:41

windy as hell and it was raining as

10:43

never ever before and our bodies

10:47

wouldn't perform well the you know our

10:49

current technology and what we've got

10:50

but the day before there's this train

10:52

race on on the night before Friday night

10:54

was the most beautiful night October

10:57

evening

10:58

sunset super dry if we had written that

11:02

that night the night before I'm sure

11:04

that with the the the the right quality

11:08

Rider we would have ended up you know in

11:10

a good position and this is also what

11:12

what the guys tell us is we you know we

11:14

worked closely to a guideline named

11:15

Robert quorum for instance who is the

11:18

top and do a guy in Sweden his world

11:19

you know he's world class and he's like

11:22

you know Stefan I would change my mic

11:25

any day to something like this because

11:27

it is a different experience then again

11:29

I don't want to exaggerate

11:30

you know our reason to be or that we're

11:32

you know but it's a different thing it's

11:34

a new category it's a new discipline and

11:36

I think that's we actually Kate thing

11:38

for a new experience which is different

11:40

to you know what we've been doing before

11:43

you know whether that be downhill

11:46

mountain biking or fierce MX riding at

11:49

you know on a track so this there's a

11:51

new thing here what we would love to see

11:53

then PR why the PR guy and me would love

11:56

to see you come in from the side into

11:59

contests like that and just kill ya when

12:02

ya like that that would be wonderful and

12:04

before I tell you it is happening of

12:06

course it's gonna happen sometime but

12:08

are we are we ready to do ready right

12:11

now

12:11

we'll see and I think the next important

12:14

thing looking at what we're doing is

12:15

that we're not a 1:1 product company we

12:18

have very you know clear ideas about you

12:22

know what the future models will be

12:24

going forward so we have four different

12:26

platforms plan towards 2022 so in that

12:30

sounds they will all represent different

12:31

types of performance targeting different

12:34

or addressing different user groups or

12:36

whatever so there are bikes in the

12:39

pipeline that are more likely to

12:43

actually get to the point of killing it

12:46

that events like like the golden girl on

12:48

Grand National I'm actually part of them

12:50

like dark social Facebook group in a

12:53

Facebook message in which is called

12:55

giegi n photos uh-huh which is gökmen

12:59

Grand National fat people all right

13:02

interesting which is no it's too funny I

13:05

have some friends of mine that I grew up

13:07

with are really petrol heads drive a lot

13:11

of enduro

13:12

all of them go to Gotland to drive this

13:15

competition yeah and they want me to

13:17

come with them and stand in the rain and

13:20

mud and look I haven't yet been there

13:24

but yeah maybe on a yeah on a cake

13:26

you should be get there next year and uh

13:28

you know get there on the on on on a

13:31

cake bike and just to make a point yeah

13:35

you know if you like we make a custom

13:37

bike and we called the fat cake yeah

13:38

yeah the fat cake that's should we move

13:43

back in history a little bit to look at

13:45

your background how do you feel so far

13:49

about your career well you know it's

13:54

it's I think there's a deeper answer to

13:58

you know asking anyone why are you doing

14:00

what you're doing and so forth and and

14:02

I'm not gonna dig into that right now I

14:03

think I think that that so far doing

14:08

what I'm doing I've been working in the

14:11

consumer product space throughout my

14:14

life starting in in the basically

14:17

interior furniture industry back in the

14:19

days and you know moving towards

14:23

consultancy in that field and I did

14:25

anything from importing to doing

14:27

exhibitions I did I had retail and

14:29

whatever in that space and went on to

14:33

you know becoming a consultant working

14:36

for numerous brands including you know

14:38

Ikea Nokia hot pan Hitler and whatever

14:42

it was but I got to the point where I

14:44

felt like man you're not bringing

14:46

any purpose to you know society and

14:50

that's when I started pork which is

14:51

basically a business that was you know

14:54

based strongly influenced by or

14:56

constantly reflecting our mission of

14:59

doing the best we could possibly save

15:01

lives and reduce consequence of

15:02

accidents for skiers and snowboarders

15:04

and cyclists and that pretty much was a

15:08

clear you know I had to do something

15:12

that had a meaning and not just

15:14

supporting me for accelerating

15:15

consumption and that was meaningful for

15:18

a number of years and this new journey

15:20

is also about purpose inspiring people

15:22

to you know faster move towards Sarah

15:25

mission which is

15:26

think that I I truly work for in my

15:30

little whatever I contribute with that

15:33

said I think that that I've had a

15:35

wonderful career in terms of working

15:37

with consumer products with things that

15:40

actually have made you know during the

15:43

my years working with protection you

15:45

know it's it's hard not to cry when you

15:47

get these letters from parents and and

15:49

you know the their kids are saved they

15:53

were in terrible accidents or whatever

15:54

it might be and thanks to a helmet or a

15:56

back protector whatever so that's of

15:58

course super sweet and I think that we

16:00

influenced a whole market globally in

16:02

actually wanting to accepting to wear

16:05

helmet in general where there was a pock

16:06

helmet or anything else and in this case

16:09

uh if we can inspire the the world of

16:12

faster changing means of transportation

16:14

whether it's takin the bus and selling

16:16

your car or if you're buying another

16:18

electric motorbike from someone else and

16:20

us becoming a big clear part of that you

16:22

know in our little category of rolling

16:25

commuting I think that we can play a

16:27

vital role in that sense so in that you

16:30

know it's small scale but I think that

16:33

we have I've been able to work in in in

16:36

in with projects that have had a strong

16:42

penetration of people's perception and

16:44

willingness to take on whether it be

16:47

habits or in this case like the

16:48

motorbikes and did it change the meaning

16:52

in your life when you started working

16:54

with something that had a stronger

16:55

purpose no I think I was always longing

16:58

for that something that was more evident

17:00

you know I I'm a bit militant when it

17:03

comes to to product relevancy in general

17:07

so even when I was working with with you

17:09

know furniture design or glassware and

17:11

ceramics and whatever I did I've always

17:14

tried to infuse those projects with

17:20

relevancy and and this is a long story

17:23

but basically the better you can

17:25

actually influence something an object

17:27

or you know with functionality that had

17:29

which is a good representative of its

17:31

its time the likeliness of that becoming

17:34

a classic that has a long you know life

17:37

span both physically as well as

17:39

aesthetic

17:39

is much higher than just you know

17:41

quickly capitalizing on a short trend so

17:44

even when I was working with glassware

17:46

and furniture the ambition was always to

17:48

do the best we possibly could to make

17:50

sure that that had a good place in you

17:53

know representing its times because

17:55

that's the kind of stuff that you later

17:56

would buy from Bukowski second hand as

17:59

an antique in a hundred years and

18:00

whatever so and that might sound a bit

18:03

pretentious but that was always the case

18:05

so I went from there and potentially

18:08

found a high level of meaning and

18:10

purpose getting into the hamlet business

18:13

because it was more tangible because

18:15

before that it was all about guessing I

18:17

did things that might become classics in

18:20

terms of you know with the long life

18:23

long survival ability do you sometimes

18:28

wake up in the middle of the night and

18:29

think like how many lives have I saved

18:32

with my helmets and back protectors and

18:35

no I have not really it's it's not

18:38

because then you you it's it's it's I'd

18:41

say that that would be Jesus like kind

18:43

of ID or perception or philosophy and I

18:47

just you know I it's too pragmatic in

18:50

ourselves I'm like I I when it happens

18:53

when someone you know when I get one of

18:55

those that I want to have one of those

18:56

ladders it was really touchy and I felt

18:59

like I we actually do something you know

19:02

meaningful we do something that might

19:03

you know make a difference at times and

19:06

that's really rewarding just then but

19:08

it's not like I would wake up and start

19:10

counting on that the level of relevancy

19:12

I've contributed with no but I think

19:15

that to me every once in a while that

19:16

would probably hit me yeah they don't

19:19

hit you work maybe it has maybe I'm too

19:22

shy to to admit it or to to I don't know

19:27

it's a mate I mean just imagine how

19:29

amazing that is how much pain you have

19:31

reduced the I think you know to me

19:33

that's pretty cool I would love to have

19:35

that feeling sometimes yeah

19:37

how many helmets did you sell well

19:40

throughout the years I'd say that

19:42

looking at my left pork in 2016 and I

19:46

pretty much started planning for it in

19:48

oh three and we launched our first

19:50

season 105 oh six so during ten

19:53

years I potentially did speaking about

19:58

Helmand sighs I think that somewhere

20:00

between two and a half and three and a

20:02

half million helmets that's a lot of

20:05

helmets yeah that's actually my favorite

20:08

helmet I only have pork helmets and paka

20:11

goals and I'd love this lovely stuff so

20:12

I'm a fan yeah I had a couple of times -

20:15

so are you still alright yeah I well you

20:19

know off and on yeah

20:21

but yeah I don't do a lot of mountain

20:23

biking and skiing so yeah that's

20:25

definitely been important to me yeah

20:26

good speaking of Park when we prepared

20:31

this there was something I didn't know

20:33

before that became evident and it's that

20:36

it's the real name is piece of cake or

20:39

it's a yeah how did you come up with

20:41

that crazy name yeah it's it's like you

20:46

know I was I had this I knew I was I

20:49

wanted to use the same symbol pretty

20:51

much it's it's the similar is not

20:53

identical but it's inspired by the

20:54

crash-test-dummy symbols being used you

20:56

know on these metal guys inside cars

20:59

when they're testing the the crash or

21:01

car crash testing anyhow that symbol was

21:05

perfect again for a protection company

21:06

and I it was the same symbol that was

21:08

swimming around on your laptop if you

21:10

had an Apple back in the days and the

21:12

simplicity and the graphics of that is

21:14

something I always liked and I I said

21:17

you know I wanted to use it I will at

21:19

one point and this time it was perfect

21:20

but I didn't know what to name the

21:22

company so one morning on my way to work

21:25

I was like mmm what does it actually can

21:27

I associate you know this is what it

21:29

actually communicates or says sort word

21:31

or and then looking at that symbol from

21:33

above it looks like you know pieces of

21:35

cake so piece of cake POC became polka

21:38

super you know swift short name and

21:41

that's the story and we never tell the

21:43

story but you know and I my colleagues

21:46

back then they were really nervous about

21:49

the whole thing they were like ah it's

21:50

stupid man you can't call it you know it

21:52

don't tell anyone it's more proof of

21:54

concept or I don't know how many

21:56

variations of excuses that came up so

22:00

that's that's the story yeah and I mean

22:02

hours and hours we spend on like naming

22:05

workshops and stuff

22:07

now somebody tells me that it looked

22:08

like a cake so we called it piece of

22:10

cake I think that's it yes yeah yeah did

22:14

you decide from the start to go global

22:17

with pork right away yes I think that

22:21

these day I mean there are compromises

22:25

and and challenges you know speaking

22:29

about the global opportunity and the

22:33

need for or the the evident Pro to my

22:36

side going global with whatever I have

22:39

done throughout whatever I've done so

22:41

far and the interesting thing is that

22:43

that to me and I was brought up again in

22:46

the for energy industry the first thing

22:47

I did when I was 20 years old I went to

22:49

Milan to the furniture fair for

22:50

different reasons I'd suddenly worse I

22:52

was super interested in in furniture

22:54

design and that's another story but I

22:56

went to Milan and I lied like no one

22:59

else telling you know the different

23:00

exhibitors that I'm representing this

23:02

very important company in Sweden and we

23:04

would like to distribute your stuff in

23:06

Sweden and so forth and I managed to

23:08

fool a few guys down there so I got you

23:10

know I went home and had all of these

23:12

companies that was gonna represent in

23:14

Sweden and I was approaching architects

23:17

and these you know chairs and tables and

23:19

whatever were used in hotels and

23:20

restaurants and and whatnot so that was

23:23

my first kind of evident our interaction

23:27

on global business somehow and what

23:30

happened was that throughout those early

23:32

years design at the time was a bit you

23:37

know blingy and flashy and and super you

23:41

know pretentious to some extent and very

23:44

expensive generalizing about what that

23:48

area was all about but then the the

23:51

financial collapse you know hit this

23:53

early 1991 and from one day to another

23:57

I'd say that the values in the market

24:00

the aspirations and the preferences

24:02

changed you know in from one day to

24:04

another suddenly there was no money in

24:05

the market and that flashy luxurious

24:09

kind of time was replaced by longevity

24:12

durability simplicity value for money or

24:16

whatever it might be a number of

24:18

different values that corresponds really

24:20

well with this

24:20

named in traditions and Swedish design

24:23

had been deadly into himself you know

24:25

relevance it from an international

24:26

perspective for a number of years and I

24:28

immediately saw the opportunity here man

24:31

this is this is the big chance to

24:33

reposition Sweden in terms of you know

24:36

that type of design or design in general

24:39

I would say but I was in the furniture

24:40

business interior business at that time

24:42

so I basically moved our perspective

24:45

from from importing contemporary

24:47

international design to exporting

24:49

contemporary Swedish design

24:50

internationally and that's when I kind

24:55

of also realized that that to succeed

24:58

globally you don't need to convince if

25:02

you want to get into America don't

25:03

convince the American people because

25:05

it's it's that's a big challenge but

25:08

it's interesting to understand that

25:09

there's so many small clusters around

25:11

the world sharing values that are in you

25:14

know influence influencers and and

25:15

opinion makers so if you can identify

25:18

the small group of opinion makers in you

25:21

know whether it be ski gear and

25:23

production protections cycling electric

25:27

motor bikes or in that case furniture

25:29

you can identify those and kind of

25:32

target those and instead of looking at

25:36

countries you'd be looking at Vancouver

25:38

Seattle Los Angeles San Francisco Berlin

25:41

Munich Paris London Tokyo and so forth

25:45

and when you kind of you know and and

25:47

realized that they pretty much consume

25:49

the same ideas read the same magazines

25:51

and the same books and whatever it might

25:53

be

25:54

that's the way that's when global

25:57

penetration of business becomes Agilent

26:00

and and and and and you know efficient

26:04

and without being cynical it's like

26:06

address who you understand that you may

26:09

address with credibility and they're

26:11

likely to spread that word or that

26:14

message throughout throughout their

26:15

social community and these days you know

26:19

globally super simple I'd say it's it's

26:21

just as easy to sell to Tokyo Munich and

26:25

LA as it would be selling to Boulos

26:28

Kalmar and Bakewell yeah so we talked

26:31

about influencer marketing as something

26:33

new but it's action

26:34

the oldest yeah you know I would say

26:36

trick but the oldest method in the book

26:40

yes and what I think is in very very

26:44

interesting in what you're saying

26:45

because I'm in I'm in b2b yeah and one

26:49

thing that we're always talking about is

26:52

finding this ideal 20% that can make the

26:58

80 percent of the difference yeah

27:00

and that's basically even when you're in

27:03

a consumer product you're saying okay

27:05

can I pinpoint these number of people

27:08

and cities and be laser-sharp with that

27:11

and it's gonna make a major difference

27:14

yeah and I think that it doesn't matter

27:16

what business you would be and speaking

27:18

about consumer I mean D to C I'd say

27:21

that you know you need to establish

27:26

understanding or awareness and you know

27:29

liking is that it's the next thing that

27:31

needs to kick in but if you can do that

27:33

among 500 people globally you're on

27:36

track that's how many you need to

27:39

convince so how fast was your global

27:41

rollout of pork it happens right away I

27:45

mean we started we pretty much grew in

27:47

in in in 25 countries for sure

27:51

simultaneously so we were just as good

27:53

or bad in Italy as we were in Japan or

27:56

in Canada and Sweden so it happened from

27:59

day one and that's also what and I think

28:01

that that also I you know the first

28:03

thing I did was that that you know we

28:06

need a we need our ambassadors as well

28:08

so I went to to see bode miller's agent

28:12

in Franconia in new hampshire the first

28:16

thing i did knowing that i'm not gonna

28:18

for the guy because you know he was a

28:19

superstar he eventually became a poor

28:21

Catholic but again but it was

28:24

interesting I established a good

28:26

dialogue and and and bode had our gear

28:29

and you know he showed up at the this it

28:31

was that year was the World

28:32

Championships in Alpine Skiing and in

28:34

Austria and at the same time there was

28:37

the World Championship in ice hockey

28:39

going on in the in in Austria as well

28:41

and bode like what were we doing so he

28:44

ended up you know in the audience at the

28:46

hot in the ice hockey games with the

28:47

puck

28:47

on and people were like oh what's going

28:50

on what's that stuff what's the guy

28:52

wearing and that was just connecting to

28:54

the guy you know showing the products

28:56

and he loved what we were doing and he

28:58

became you know under the radar an

29:01

ambassador somehow that was just one

29:03

thing but what happened was that this

29:05

guy can Souls the aiding of Bode Miller

29:08

he also had another athlete julia

29:10

Mancuso wonderful personality young kid

29:14

American she was not really known she

29:17

had won the World Championship the

29:18

Junior World Championship a few years

29:20

before and she was affordable you know

29:22

according to the the limited amount of

29:24

resources we had at the time and I was I

29:26

was like ah let's give it a shot and the

29:29

first thing that happens is that she

29:30

goes to the Olympics in Torino and she

29:32

wins john slalom and i was like you know

29:35

we were on every front page in you know

29:37

mags and newspapers everywhere from one

29:40

day to another white helmet pop lago

29:42

white kogas you know at the pope gugus

29:44

and it like a superstar of course and

29:47

that was you know that was lucky but it

29:50

was deliberate forced to go to America

29:52

because if we had gone to like you know

29:54

to Europe and sponsored the French guy

29:57

all of the german-speaking parts would

29:58

go we don't like him and vice versa but

30:01

the Americans not saluting America but

30:03

the Americas are kind of neutral and

30:05

kind of you know exotic to most so they

30:07

work super well in in in in the out

30:10

countries as well how did you feel when

30:12

you saw her winning on TV you know to be

30:18

it was probably the most emotional

30:20

business experiences I've had so it was

30:24

the the the the the challenge challenge

30:26

- at the time was between on your

30:28

passion and julia Mancuso and

30:30

on a person ended up being second and I

30:32

was potentially the only sweet cheering

30:34

for Mancuso

30:35

so it was like thinking about now I

30:38

stuck

30:39

I nearly you know it was it was it was

30:42

big time yeah see your eye oh yeah I see

30:47

it was big yeah it's awesome

30:50

and this say how did it affect sales in

30:55

the next six months or I think that what

30:58

happened was that that I mean that was

31:01

as as you know I mean we're all

31:03

entrepreneurs so but speaking about

31:05

things it's you need to you know my

31:07

perspective on it it's um

31:10

you know building a company or

31:11

developing company and you know how

31:14

however that interacts with with the

31:16

branding perspective it's like building

31:18

a house you need to have a drawing

31:20

it's like architecture and it's one of

31:22

the stones you know building that

31:24

fulfilling the idea of what the actual

31:26

building is meant to become so in that

31:29

sense I think that even though we could

31:31

never ever have a plan for it but of

31:33

course we wanted you know it could have

31:36

I'd say that that it made our building

31:40

ability twice as fast for a number of

31:43

months and I think it made the pork

31:48

brand known you know among opinion

31:53

makers and the ski racing industry super

31:57

you know if we from one day to another

31:59

everyone you were doing so of course it

32:01

meant a lot but you couldn't see you

32:06

know like a graph yet but to be honest

32:09

with you starting a business is also you

32:11

know in when you're in manufacturing

32:13

it's like you can only make as much as

32:17

you have resources or money to invest in

32:20

manufacturing and we at that time we

32:23

were limited about we didn't have more

32:24

cash available to produce more than what

32:29

we're doing so maybe we sold through

32:31

faster in the stores that we were in

32:33

that first year but we never and

32:35

potentially what we could see was of

32:37

course when the the the pre-orders were

32:39

coming in six months later for for 2004

32:43

the season oh six oh seven I'm sure that

32:46

that that was you know we probably had

32:49

twice as many orders just thanks to that

32:51

later on so there was a bit of lead time

32:53

until it you know we could see the

32:55

consequences but I think that the effect

32:57

of that I think that that potential

32:59

epoch is still benefiting from that that

33:01

success so by for Judah Mancuso has been

33:05

the most valuable outside asset to to

33:09

the interest for the brand I would say

33:11

so how did you celebrate with her you

33:14

know I've been I

33:15

it's it's been so many City you know I

33:18

you know whenever I see her I tell her

33:21

about how important she is and she's had

33:25

her agents and so forth there's a

33:27

commercial reality behind - of course I

33:29

mean she became more and more expensive

33:31

for us to keep but it's more than you

33:34

know you need to if you if you perceive

33:36

your collaborators we're in this if

33:38

you're in the sports business your

33:39

athletes as something that you pay for

33:42

and you know you it's it's the the

33:45

relation needs to be much closer I'd

33:46

call them friends rather than than

33:48

business contributors it's like the best

33:53

relations we've had throughout the years

33:55

with both in in cycling as well as in

33:57

witness there's no sports or you know

34:00

tight friends and you develop products

34:02

together you need to make sure to

34:04

support their ability to win by making

34:06

lighter or dynamically faster or better

34:09

ventilated for better stamina whatever

34:12

it might be and that's that's a very

34:13

close interaction and I've had

34:15

situations with Julia for instance when

34:17

she was about to leave pork forge she

34:19

had this friend doing koga's whatever

34:21

whatever he was happening you know was

34:23

what's going on in America and I

34:26

remember that I was on the phone with

34:27

her for three and a half hours begging

34:29

crying telling her how much she meant to

34:33

us I probably declared my love for her

34:36

as well I didn't know but I was able so

34:39

it was really blood sweat and tears to

34:41

make sure that she stayed on and she did

34:43

and I you know I'm ready I owe her

34:47

everything yeah I can tell you you're

34:50

really emotionally invested in this

34:52

whole thing absolutely and I think that

34:54

that's what ever one would do and again

34:58

it's stupid here I mean we're speaking

35:01

to an audience but between us I think

35:02

that if there's no if there's no passion

35:04

you will never be able to actually

35:07

deliver what it takes to you know I'm

35:12

not saying that that that's a guarantee

35:13

that you will succeed but the likeliness

35:15

of succeeding is gonna be much much

35:17

higher if you live what you're doing

35:19

throughout your you know again it's it's

35:23

it's it's it's a way of living without

35:25

beginning you know it sounds stupid for

35:27

an entrepreneur seeing

35:28

also you know it's a it's it's a way of

35:31

life and when I say that was need to

35:35

admit that it is but it sounds a bit

35:38

Corky so it sounds a little bit corny

35:40

but it very much resonates with me and I

35:44

think with you as well no one right I

35:45

think I I really had a conversation with

35:49

a with a friend about this

35:50

that's not very passionate about what

35:53

she's doing and I thought it's for me

35:57

it's impossible I I couldn't stay in

35:59

anything if it wasn't very passionate I

36:02

would leave it at an instant people and

36:05

research talking about that employees

36:07

are not passionate they're not engaged I

36:10

mean I think being a passionate that's

36:13

that's more of a part of an identity and

36:16

for me it would be a major violation of

36:19

my identity to do something on a regular

36:22

basis that I wasn't passionate about

36:24

we've seen here as a common trait of our

36:27

guests I think that's been one of the

36:29

common traits that people are

36:31

emotionally committed to things yeah

36:33

emotionally connected to things yeah and

36:35

I think you kind of need both probably

36:38

I'm starting a company and somebody

36:39

who's like the sober guy and also yeah

36:41

but I you said something in an interview

36:44

I heard that very much resonated with me

36:46

and that was that you need to love the

36:50

challenges that will come up all the

36:52

time and not see them as as something

36:55

that you want to can get away from but

36:57

something you want to engage with I mean

36:59

many times you know it's it's running

37:04

the running business is there's one

37:06

common denominator which is solving

37:09

problems on a daily basis that's you

37:11

know if you kind of it digests or define

37:15

what's running businesses it's solving

37:17

problems then you have ideas about what

37:19

you want to do and so forth but what we

37:21

all share is solving problems there's

37:23

constantly you know potentially I'd say

37:25

that they're just guessing I haven't

37:27

counted but I'm guess that you're being

37:29

confronted by it between 50 and 200

37:31

challenges every day which are issues

37:34

and problems and I think that the took

37:38

it takes a analogy

37:42

when it comes to embracing the idea of

37:45

solving problems it's like running a

37:46

marathon and then when you've finished

37:48

the marathon starts again and again and

37:50

again so there's no end to it

37:52

and unless you you embrace the process

37:55

of never finishing really you're gonna

37:58

hate you know the idea of being you know

38:01

running starting companies or

38:02

implementing ideas and yeah I think

38:05

that's super interesting and one thing

38:08

is regards to that is that leadership

38:12

and building a business is about always

38:14

getting better quality of the problems

38:17

yeah like I bet that when you got all

38:20

these orders and you said oh we didn't

38:23

have the cash to scale fast enough that

38:26

was a problem but that was a much better

38:29

problem than not having the orders

38:31

absolutely and understanding that in the

38:34

entrepreneurial journey always improving

38:38

the type of problems to encounter yeah

38:41

absolutely I think that what you're

38:42

saying is really interesting and that's

38:44

worthwhile reading a book or writing a

38:47

book about it because I think that the

38:48

profile of the character of those

38:50

challenges issues and problems are very

38:52

different over time and you become more

38:55

and more sophisticated about dealing

38:56

with these issues and their new ones or

38:58

their previous ones but with a new angle

39:01

to them so I totally agree with that and

39:02

also I think when people look like pork

39:06

is a great success and I believe that

39:11

cake is gonna be a major success as well

39:14

and they look at Oh

39:17

pork is a it's this global global brand

39:22

they look at it as an event not as this

39:25

ten year process of solving problems

39:28

small and big every day and improving

39:33

yeah no no you're absolutely correct and

39:36

this is sometimes you might feel a bit

39:38

let down about the fact that people are

39:40

aware about because a time what

39:42

disappoints me the most but you know

39:44

running businesses would be when when

39:46

people have really you know quick

39:49

conclusions or assumptions about how

39:51

things work out or that that's

39:53

potentially not a problem

39:55

for if people would know how much a team

39:57

needs to invest in terms of you know

40:00

failure mistakes great ideas trying

40:02

trying again

40:04

you know failing and then finding a

40:06

solution I'd say that that that kind of

40:10

what's what the the and you know what do

40:14

you expect from a customer they want

40:16

something which is perfect and that

40:17

sounds they shouldn't be caring I guess

40:19

but it's sometimes that you feel a bit

40:20

hard about the fact that hey these guys

40:22

don't have a clue about what's behind

40:24

this I'm getting all passionate about

40:27

this subject because there is something

40:30

I learned from a guy called yuk Odysseys

40:32

who's done a lot of research on

40:35

corporate life cycles and what would you

40:38

say in this entrepreneurial journey what

40:41

would have been the like as the same

40:45

thing with a human being whether you

40:46

have a two week old son son son and you

40:51

also have a older kids as well I bet

40:54

they have different problems yeah for

40:57

sure yeah and and what what type of

41:01

stages do you think that you went

41:03

through in your entrepreneurial journey

41:05

and what was the differences you know I

41:09

don't know if this is what you kind of

41:11

you know where we're going but I'm gonna

41:14

try and a fill in there because looking

41:17

at my I think that I enjoy the first

41:20

three to five years the most because

41:23

then you have you know the big strategic

41:27

directions being pointed out then you

41:30

kind of plan and and and you know

41:34

resource to implement those directions

41:36

and whatever it might be and and

41:40

sometimes people ask me well you stayed

41:42

with POC for 10 or 12 years 12 years

41:45

maybe and the reason I could do that in

41:48

a sense was basically because we had the

41:50

opportunity of adding new users to our

41:53

group of you know users so initially it

41:57

was all about ski racers we added you

41:59

know free skiers and whatever and then

42:01

we went into cycling and then we went

42:03

into urban cycling and commuting yeah we

42:05

we could do anything from you know

42:07

helmets to goggles and back

42:08

and so forth I had numerous projects

42:11

going on simultaneously that were they

42:13

were always new and that's pretty much

42:15

what saved my energy throughout the

42:17

years but I think that I'm a bit

42:20

impatient and and when when the stuff

42:22

becomes too squarish and and it's it's

42:27

all about you know it's not about you

42:30

know big innovation and just you know

42:33

fine-tuning in the end I think that

42:36

there are other guys that are much

42:37

better off than me dealing with that I

42:40

know whether the answers you were or you

42:42

know if it kind of I are not saying to

42:46

you who you're thinking yeah it taps in

42:48

in the sense that the first part of the

42:52

life cycle you enjoy the most the most

42:56

and and I think what what I learned from

43:00

each AK was very very interesting like

43:03

the first face of just the birth yeah

43:07

that's one set of problems and you can

43:10

have normal you will have problems you

43:13

have normal problems you can have

43:15

abnormal problems you can I believe the

43:17

problem yeah at the same time when you

43:19

grow up and become a teenager you're

43:22

gonna have problems as well yeah but if

43:24

you have the same problems as a two week

43:28

year old boy when you're when you're 19

43:32

then they're probably not normal

43:34

know an understanding like when you

43:36

scaled up it's normal to have cashflow

43:41

problems yeah absolutely but if you have

43:42

a company that's more mature yeah

43:45

then instead you'll probably have an

43:48

abnormal or at worst lethal problem in

43:51

your business yeah absolutely and I

43:52

totally agree with that avoid double

43:54

trouble I mean it's make sure to solve

43:56

whatever issues and problems you have

43:58

because you'll be running into new ones

43:59

yeah and if you stick with the old ones

44:01

you will have twice as many issues that

44:03

you need to solve which is impossible

44:05

you will die from that so in that sense

44:07

yes absolutely

44:08

we've from kind of different sources

44:11

heard that you're kind of this PR genius

44:15

if you would give any advice to people

44:18

that's scaling up their businesses

44:21

how to approach PR I have a very

44:25

pragmatic approach on that topic and you

44:28

know we're touching on the fact today

44:31

before that all this has been done

44:32

before there's nothing new it's been

44:34

around since ever and I think that's the

44:36

most you know the most important insight

44:40

that you can bring with you because

44:42

there's nothing new

44:45

at times I used to do it much more

44:47

before us you know I'm out lecturing

44:49

speaking to you know people in in

44:51

business or or students or whatever it

44:53

might be on the topic of Browning design

44:56

and products and whatever it might be

44:57

and my first question is always yeah you

45:00

know just to get the discussion going so

45:03

speaking about brands a please you know

45:06

hands up give me an idea about a really

45:08

really old brand and people would you

45:10

know raise their hands and go ah shell

45:12

and British Petroleum and Kellogg's and

45:14

coca-cola and so forth point taken

45:16

because this is this is what we need to

45:19

understand that the hope the concept of

45:21

browning has been around since we

45:23

started communicating being human beings

45:24

so the best the best examples of great

45:27

brands are the religions there is a

45:30

philosophy and this is more important

45:32

today today than ever before I would say

45:34

because we we've been confronted with

45:36

issues of sustainability a market that

45:39

is becoming increasingly aware and

45:41

demanding new stuff from their their

45:43

suppliers the companies and there has to

45:46

be a reason for being again which is

45:48

nothing that we've been discussing that

45:50

in in marketing literature for the past

45:52

150 years but you know again taking away

45:57

all of that literature and the academic

45:59

approach on this it's super simple

46:01

because it doesn't matter if it's

46:03

Christianity or if it's it's Taoism or

46:05

Buddhism or whatever it might be there

46:07

is a philosophy to start with that

46:09

philosophy it's done being activated

46:12

through a number of different media's

46:13

churches Muskies or whatever it might be

46:16

that's the architecture everything is

46:17

there to reflect if the philosophy the

46:20

graphic language among these religions

46:22

is better than most I mean the crosses

46:24

and the their the the different symbols

46:26

they've been around since since the

46:28

beginning it's being printed in Bibles

46:30

and corners on whatever it might be just

46:32

to spread the word there's a priesthood

46:35

you know being ambassadors for these

46:37

brands and when that kind of trickles

46:39

down in people's mind in the hardest

46:41

they're like oh well that makes sense

46:44

now I get it because it's we tend to and

46:48

I think that's an educational mistake

46:50

it's basically all of the the the the

46:52

anything from Honda sex Coulomb to

46:54

whatever Business Institute or college

46:57

or whatever it might be around the world

46:58

you know trying and make this evidence

47:01

aspect of browning communication as

47:04

evident as it it's because anybody who

47:07

understands the connection between how

47:09

religions actually deal with their

47:11

philosophies perfectly understands how

47:14

do we actually implement that this in

47:16

our own business and that becomes an

47:18

easy way and it's easy to follow and

47:20

doing that that's how when PR becomes

47:24

successful because you have an ambition

47:26

there's an idea behind what you're doing

47:27

and you're being a hundred percent

47:29

committed and honest to what your

47:32

service or you know what what you're

47:34

doing the product reflects your promise

47:36

then idea behind what you're doing

47:38

whatever you do in terms of films and

47:41

prints and and and whatever the tonality

47:44

of your communication or the people that

47:46

you surround the surround yourself with

47:48

on the team and so forth everything gets

47:51

back to the same kind of point you or

47:54

your promise and I would say I would

47:56

take this as far as as I think that the

47:58

future business will be built on mutual

48:00

sympathy between company and user and

48:04

it's not even a business case it could

48:07

be anything from political parties to

48:09

you know citizens or the tennis club and

48:13

its members stick to your promise and

48:15

make sure because when you start

48:17

cheating is like in any other relation

48:18

people will split split up and if you

48:21

want to have long lasting relations you

48:23

better you know stick to your promise

48:25

and skip the infidelity part of things

48:29

because that is just gonna crash it that

48:32

was a long monologue on on the topic but

48:35

that's my subjective idea about why I

48:38

might be successful at times in in in in

48:41

PR related topics that's a I love the

48:46

idea of look

48:47

religions I mean Jesus as an influencer

48:51

I mean you know the logos they've had we

48:55

all know where we got inspired with the

48:57

hair yeah yeah you guys for sure yeah

49:01

there's this great influencer from like

49:03

yeah from Wainwright yeah also I mean

49:05

that's like the philosophical origins of

49:08

building a brand which I totally agree

49:10

with but then you also have like the

49:12

practical aspects of it and I know we

49:16

had cornered Bergstrom Harris again yet

49:19

you guys have it's almost ridiculous how

49:22

much you have in common in a way you

49:23

know you've built these design driven

49:24

consumer brands have you you have Park

49:27

him with sound yeah industries and now

49:30

you've both switched to electric yeah

49:32

you can change so it's kind of well but

49:35

he said something that I think really

49:36

kind of fits with you as well that when

49:41

they created the products the products

49:42

need to be great functionally great you

49:45

know top notch but then the design when

49:48

you look at the design of the product

49:49

and you shoot the pictures of the

49:51

product and the magazines all say like

49:54

that's a beautiful picture I want a

49:55

picture in my magazine yeah that's

49:57

something that I think Park has been

49:59

amazingly successful at and okay call so

50:02

yeah yeah yeah and I think that that

50:05

that's also you know getting to

50:07

understand how our media works anything

50:10

we can do to lubricate the work or the

50:12

journalists is it's you know going to

50:15

support us and the likeliness of they

50:17

actually posting something in that that

50:19

comes from so if there's a good story we

50:22

have a beautiful imagery and hopefully a

50:26

great product that is being you know in

50:28

that photo then you know the the it's

50:32

it's it's it's it's a way of supporting

50:34

their daily challenge of you know doing

50:38

the best they can at work so in that

50:39

sounds without again being cynical I

50:41

think that it's pretty much how should I

50:44

put on it's it's to some extent

50:46

understanding their work and what they

50:48

need to or to simplify their their daily

50:53

you know tasks I mean I don't think it's

50:55

a cynicism

50:56

really because you know people who read

50:58

the magazines they want to read great

51:00

they enjoy that yeah and the journalists

51:03

want to write great story because that's

51:05

what they cater to the readers yeah and

51:07

you help them tell great stories yeah so

51:10

maybe in the nights yeah that's how I

51:13

would like to put it as well so uh but

51:15

but it no buts

51:17

yes that's how we try and serve the

51:20

market of media messengers supporting

51:24

our course of course and you and that's

51:27

how you become good at that I don't

51:29

think there's a the sometimes you hear

51:30

people talking about like PR like it's

51:32

almost like tricking and you're fooling

51:34

people but it's really not I mean I

51:37

think even even if you create this great

51:40

product with a great story and a great y

51:42

and great design another thing you give

51:44

us give a gift to you know the world

51:46

yeah and and I'd say that that PR has a

51:51

number of different facets or levels and

51:53

so forth and I think there's a lot of

51:55

bad PR around yeah and bad PR is

51:58

terrible is probably the worst feel I

52:00

can think of in terms of marketing I

52:03

mean bullshitting when when when PR

52:06

people and PR buyers or buying crap PR

52:10

just to fool a market to get you know

52:13

quick fixes it's it's it's disastrous

52:16

but it doesn't build strong brand

52:17

no on the other hand PR itself the way

52:20

it should be working transparent ish

52:21

explaining what you're trying to achieve

52:23

and so forth to establish a some kind of

52:25

a you know dialogue with whoever you're

52:28

trying to establish dialogue with based

52:30

on mutual kind of in a balanced way I

52:34

think that's that's that is extremely

52:36

important and it's it's potentially one

52:39

of the most important tools as well and

52:41

and just speaking about and this is not

52:43

you know I don't want to bash at the the

52:45

advertising industry in general but I've

52:48

never ever really hired an advertising

52:52

agency for anything we've done neither a

52:54

PR agency because it all comes from

52:56

internally and I think that a lot of

52:58

companies may actually activate this in

53:01

a broader way than what they're actually

53:02

doing because the truth is within them

53:05

so if they can learn how to express

53:07

themselves in a way that will be

53:08

understood and received and perceived

53:11

and according to their ambition I think

53:13

that there's a great opportunity

53:14

for actually taking all of that or some

53:17

of it depending on what your character

53:19

talent or you know who you are but a lot

53:22

of that stuff should actually derive

53:24

from from the company itself and that is

53:26

what's happening you know not only in

53:27

Sweden but in the world all of the major

53:29

advertising agencies are pretty much

53:31

dying yeah as you know this is much

53:34

better than I do but but yeah but it's

53:35

good I think it's good let the story

53:37

emanates from from the source and you

53:41

know it used to be that you bought this

53:43

super expensive TV time and it had to be

53:45

right and you had to have all the

53:46

expensive help you know to protect

53:48

yourself in your organization and stuff

53:50

and that's different now with no

53:53

barriers no middleman

53:54

yeah no gatekeepers and the best story

53:57

wins then that story needs to be

54:00

authentic so I think that's the reason

54:02

why why agencies are dying and you say

54:04

oh this giant moved house and before we

54:10

move over to cake you sold the company

54:14

to Americans yeah twice yeah first first

54:19

to an American company and then to a

54:21

london-based company yes how was it to

54:25

work with as a how is the culture is

54:29

there any cultural differences

54:31

differences yeah yeah I did this it's a

54:35

really interesting you know experience

54:38

I've you know to some extent there's

54:41

there's the two parts of me like with

54:43

most either you both hate and love

54:45

America

54:46

and I've been doing you know business

54:50

with America throughout my whole life

54:51

basically or being from from from what

54:53

I'm in for my own early 20s and I pretty

54:58

much thought I had a good idea but about

55:00

what was gonna come and when we saw pop

55:03

the first time to to black dime and

55:06

us-based view that company not to make

55:10

an exit I mean they paid this everything

55:12

at once but there was this opportunity

55:14

for us to actually continue capitalizing

55:16

on the value we're building for

55:18

different different reasons that didn't

55:20

kick in and we were so tired and

55:21

negotiating when we would close that

55:23

deal so we didn't foresee what was you

55:26

know happening down the road

55:28

anyhow we had you know we did three

55:31

years together and it was a wonderful

55:32

experience but also a very you know

55:36

awakening kind of experience I'm really

55:40

you know I feel tons of energy and and

55:43

and I you know self-esteem for the

55:47

ability for Swedish companies succeeding

55:49

internationally because we have

55:50

something which is and and without you

55:53

know being becoming political here I'm

55:55

not the Social Democrat but I think that

55:57

the Social Democratic kind of experience

56:00

has influenced Sweden and Swedes in a

56:02

good way because we've learned not to

56:04

shut up we questioned everything and so

56:08

forth while in America and that's pretty

56:10

much thanks to the the labor legislation

56:13

to Sweden to you just you can't just get

56:16

rid of people sometimes it's frustrating

56:17

being you know managing the company but

56:20

you know from a larger perspective I

56:22

think that a lot of the I'd said

56:24

creativity and and energy and high pace

56:29

moving forward that among Swedish

56:32

companies I mean we're pretty successful

56:33

when it comes to successful companies

56:35

per capita in Sweden has its reason for

56:38

the ability as a team being loud and

56:42

being transparent and clear in America

56:45

everyone's scared stiff because if you

56:47

you know if you question anything that

56:50

would come from someone who'd be your

56:52

manager if he doesn't like you kick you

56:54

from one day to another so everyone is

56:57

super scared of making decisions yeah I

56:59

mean this is decision-making and

57:02

processes are very very slow so I was

57:04

extremely you know I thought I'd come to

57:06

America where things were happening at

57:08

high pace and people who were super

57:10

agile in terms of moving forward so

57:12

forth but it's potentially that the

57:14

slowest kind of culture I've and I

57:18

haven't you know I haven't I haven't you

57:20

have not been you know acquired by a

57:22

Russian company or a Japanese company

57:23

I'm sure there are other differences in

57:25

other markets but my anticipation and my

57:28

expectations in America showed to be the

57:31

opposite when I actually experienced

57:33

that in real life

57:34

very slow extry extry extremely worried

57:37

and closed

57:41

and they didn't keep their promise in

57:45

terms of the the I mean I would never

57:47

bashed them we signed an agreement but

57:48

but the thing was that that the the way

57:51

we had the contract look we were not

57:54

being you know incentivized in

57:56

conjunction with how Polk was developing

57:59

and we simply decided because again a

58:03

lot of the guys in that US organizations

58:05

are great friends with me and they were

58:07

no evils they were just very different

58:09

and we had that contractual you know

58:11

part of it we were part of an Astor

58:13

company so we ended up in a number of

58:16

detours that we needed to you know to

58:19

get you know so we mutually decided like

58:21

you know let's see if there's another

58:23

potential owner or buyer so then I spent

58:27

spring 2015 in New York pitching pork

58:30

for numerous potential new acquires and

58:33

owners and managed to sell it again yes

58:37

we sold it again and really on my side I

58:41

mean there was to me it was important

58:44

that that there was a company strong

58:46

enough to to support the organization

58:50

financially resource wise and so forth

58:52

and this london-based company that's

58:54

called very experienced in big

58:56

international consumer brands was a

58:58

great you know ordering that sounds but

59:01

pretty much as we sold that my intention

59:04

was initially to stay with the company

59:06

Europe you know but I think that that

59:09

the first time when I realized that the

59:13

idea about you know ending up together

59:16

with black diamond to support our you

59:18

know back end and being able to continue

59:20

growing the company in a faster and in a

59:22

smarter way in a more relevant relevant

59:25

way and you know from a consumer

59:26

perspective or user perspective I go to

59:29

the point where this new where I

59:31

realized that I'm not going to be able

59:34

to do what I love doing in this

59:37

corporate world of you know corporate

59:40

owners it was a totally different agenda

59:43

I mean that sounds it was evident for me

59:45

that mmm I need to start another journey

59:48

a new journey is it easy for you to

59:50

Boston no I think I'm terrible I think

59:53

I'm actually not a good employee

59:55

now I'm stubborn and I'm grumpy and I'm

59:58

I'm I'm I'm a bit I'd say I'm a bit

60:02

hostile I'm terrible

60:04

so in that sounds I need to admit that

60:06

it's my shortcoming to being able to

60:09

deal with guys with other perspectives

60:12

so after you sold to invest Corp yeah

60:14

that's when you went to Bali surfing no

60:17

actually when that was when we sold two

60:19

black diamonds so yeah so and this that

60:22

was also one of the big shocks for you

60:23

know again the American in the Swiss

60:25

culture we have just been acquired by

60:27

black diamond and they had number and

60:29

again it was a gnostic publicly traded

60:31

companies company and and to me

60:35

one of the key things is that that I

60:37

believe in people and I believe in the

60:40

ability for individuals to take the

60:41

responsibility of doing what they're

60:43

doing you say is very much about

60:45

micromanaging I mean and they have their

60:47

policies I mean if you're travelling a

60:50

breakfast is maximum four bucks if you

60:53

have dinner or you can't stay at hotels

60:56

that you know in it couldn't be more

60:58

than this and this and that price and my

61:01

take on that is that if I have my guys

61:03

out traveling to China or wherever but

61:06

might be in the world and they're

61:08

spending two weeks and weekends without

61:10

getting any extra pay just supporting

61:12

our business they need to sleep they

61:14

need to stay at this no tells they need

61:16

to have you know they're away from their

61:18

daily lives and their families or

61:20

whatever is you need to support that you

61:21

need to salute and you need to

61:22

compensate for that while we ended up in

61:26

a situation and where everything was you

61:28

know are limited by different polish and

61:30

so forth so that said I need to get back

61:34

to where we started here and the

61:35

question was Bob yeah yeah but lease yes

61:38

so we we had one this this Innovation

61:41

Award the the technique for the the tech

61:46

organization technique for targeting

61:48

Sweden for a product and it was a very

61:51

generous price we want 250,000 Swedish

61:54

kronor

61:54

and we figured let's let's move the

61:57

office to Bali go surfing for two weeks

61:59

because you know we could you know great

62:02

experience you know bonding

62:04

you know establishing that team spirit

62:06

and also actively working on different

62:08

topics that we needed

62:09

to challenge to you know to to improve

62:11

as an organization and when the the the

62:15

us guys at Black Diamond back in America

62:17

realized that these guys are going to

62:19

bar listing at a luxury hotel for two

62:22

weeks surfing they were absolutely you

62:24

know and that was potentially the first

62:26

shock they had and I was that was it was

62:29

painful and and and we had one that that

62:32

competition before we required so really

62:36

there was no reason for anyone in that

62:38

sense to to assume that that money was

62:42

what would end up in our new owners

62:44

pockets but that was a great experience

62:46

but the reason I know about Bali is that

62:49

because we used to be neighbors yeah

62:51

yeah I honest this office box office was

62:54

just right across the hall and one day

62:58

it was just pitch black in there nobody

63:00

was there yeah and I what's going on and

63:03

I asked like the cleaner yeah no I heard

63:05

they sold a company and went surfing

63:07

haha

63:08

that would have been even more

63:10

aggressive we kept the company but we

63:12

went surfing at Park did you ever have

63:15

because you sell safety yeah in reality

63:19

did you ever have any close calls yeah I

63:23

would say that the scariest kind of

63:26

situation primarily for the victim here

63:30

and second the I'd say the survival of

63:35

the business happened pretty early

63:36

actually one of the early guys that we

63:39

signed was an American down island

63:40

downhiller named Scott McCartney and

63:42

Scott also very tight relation and he

63:47

was you know super active developing

63:48

product or whatever and the worst that

63:52

the most scary downhill on the World Cup

63:53

circuit is the one in kids bill which is

63:55

the Hannah and Cameron Cameron and the

63:58

high speeds the fiercest jumps and

64:00

everything is on you know in that race

64:01

and at that time I was with my kids ski

64:06

racing down in up north in Sweden so I

64:08

was you know watching their race and

64:13

during the race in kids bill and

64:15

suddenly one of the you know fellow dads

64:18

came to me as I was standing so I watch

64:21

and say hey Stefan

64:22

Scott McCartney has crashed in kids book

64:24

and apparently it's really bad and it

64:27

only takes about three or four minutes

64:29

when people start calling me on my

64:30

mobile and it was like anything from

64:32

expressing this was you know it's daily

64:36

papers and then salad or blood and and

64:38

eventually you know international media

64:40

calling me what had happened was that

64:42

Scott had a great race and what happened

64:46

is that there's a last jump just before

64:47

the finish line at that specific race

64:49

and their speeds are you know at between

64:52

140 and 150 caves so he comes off that

64:56

jump and he with you know a bit

64:59

unbalanced and turns in the air and he

65:01

flies like 60 meters and then he what

65:04

happens is that when he hits the snow

65:06

his skis are you know 90 degrees against

65:12

his his his forward motion pretty much

65:14

so it's it's he catapults from his

65:17

position and hits his head on the ice

65:19

and he becomes you know unconscious

65:23

immediately and he kind of you know his

65:25

slides past the finish line and as he

65:28

hits the snow the helmet just breaks

65:30

into pieces so as its lining down that

65:34

the the helmet is kind of you know

65:36

turning off his head and he ends up in

65:38

on you know I've seen this later of

65:40

course so I you know and and as you know

65:44

being in the finish area he is on on the

65:46

snow lying down and he starts shaking

65:49

before everything you know before he it

65:52

stops that everything is silent and and

65:54

the audience and everyone is like and

65:56

then you see doctors coming and so forth

65:57

and it's one of the worst crashes in the

66:01

history of downhill actually but he

66:05

survived and yeah and what I did was

66:07

basically I went back to the hotel and I

66:08

you know I watched what was going on and

66:11

and the phone calls kept on coming in

66:13

from you know again not their Spiegel

66:16

and whatever asking in German like what

66:19

would happen and and and I tried to

66:22

convince them to change language because

66:23

I don't understand a about what

66:25

they're asking and eventually we started

66:27

something which was a risk

66:30

Christ you know process which is was

66:35

basically trying to understand

66:36

what had happened so eventually the guy

66:39

survives and what may have you know

66:42

ended up being at the end of the stream

66:45

of pork as a company actually in turns

66:47

into something else but it was really a

66:49

learning superstretchy a learning

66:54

experience in under huge stress and the

66:57

first thing I do is that I call his

66:59

parents saying that a this is I'm

67:01

terribly sorry about what has happened

67:03

we're now doing an investigation on the

67:06

actual forces that he has been been been

67:08

been you know that has been transferred

67:11

to his hand and in this crash and

67:13

whatever and what the helmet did or did

67:15

not do or whatever and then we had an

67:17

official statement towards media and so

67:19

forth and then we brought in guys in bio

67:21

dynamics and stuff starting to analyze

67:24

what what happened what what really

67:25

happened and then the first thing we

67:27

realized is that due to a situation at

67:30

140 case and the fact that he cut apart

67:32

the catapults when he hits the snow the

67:34

the speed of that you know of the speed

67:38

that he has when he hits the snow or the

67:41

ice is 16 times higher than what you

67:44

actually test the helmet to to be

67:45

certified according to so there were

67:48

huge forces and the fact that the helmet

67:51

cracked and deconstructed that was also

67:54

something that we engineered into the

67:56

helmet because it's just like a stunt

67:57

and stuntman jumping into boxes it's

67:59

like gradually decreasing the power and

68:02

the forces so that was according to plan

68:06

but no one knew that of course but when

68:08

everything came together after a few

68:10

days he woke up he was arrived and so

68:12

forth the whole thing that actually

68:14

could have ended our company turn into a

68:16

very you know what a big upside for us

68:19

being able to support his relatives you

68:23

know of health in terms of recovering

68:26

fast how did he recover fully oh yeah

68:29

yeah he went back to ski racing but to

68:31

be honest with you without you know and

68:33

we need to ask him about it but I think

68:36

that when I speak to him he'd say that I

68:39

never really got back into the same

68:42

shape as I did before whether that was

68:44

physical mental or or or you know I

68:47

think that he lost his

68:50

because it was a scary scary scary

68:52

situation but that the helmet breaking

68:55

that actually probably saved him yes

68:58

that that was part of you know

69:00

decreasing the the the energy being

69:03

being transferred to his brain so but

69:06

again it looked terrible only you know

69:08

you know looking at it seeing it on TV I

69:11

think this also manifests having a

69:16

really strong purpose built in to the

69:20

DNA of the business yeah and again you

69:23

know even though we had AI think that

69:25

there's so many outs you know aspects

69:28

and factors that you you you cannot

69:30

control because it doesn't matter how

69:32

good your what you're doing if this

69:33

would have turn out in a worse you know

69:36

with consequences that I don't even want

69:39

to speak about I think that despite the

69:42

fact that we had done our homework we

69:44

would have risked ending you know the

69:47

the future you know development of the

69:51

business just because it did crash I

69:53

mean for me explaining that it's meant

69:55

to crash yeah sure yeah yeah it's a very

69:59

difficult yes situation yeah

70:01

rhetorically it's like impossible yeah

70:03

I'm a little bit taken by the the story

70:07

should we move on to to cake and talking

70:12

about the current venture that you're

70:15

pursuing

70:16

yeah well absolutely and it's also so

70:20

the name cake came from the rest of the

70:24

cake then yes so so I mean just to

70:27

continue they you know and it's again we

70:32

don't communicate that but you know

70:34

people who know they knew and they know

70:37

so based on on on so if you look at the

70:40

logger type of the cake business now

70:41

it's like a piece of it's it's a cake

70:44

from about and there's a missing piece

70:46

in in that case and that's pork yeah

70:48

yeah the piece of cake is gone and the

70:50

rest of the cake is is it now being

70:52

being bathed that's actually a hilarious

70:55

thing I just want to know what the next

70:57

company's gonna be called yeah I get

70:59

that question from people who know the

71:00

store and I don't know anything from

71:02

icing to crumble the

71:03

the ambition of the company would be so

71:08

the the what I think is an amazing kind

71:11

of idea about this I used to be I used

71:14

to ride this when I was fifteen I used

71:16

to ride this cross the open thing that I

71:19

was tuning and Tunie and tuning it was

71:22

up to like 11 horsepower and I thought

71:25

it's the coolest guy around and I was

71:27

always my fingers were always dirty when

71:28

I was doing that yeah

71:30

motorcycles are kind of they're loud and

71:33

they're dirty and that's part of the old

71:36

legacy of motorcycle and now you're

71:39

heading into this new world where it's

71:41

silent it's clean yeah and does that

71:46

changed like the entire dynamics of the

71:48

target audience do you think I believe

71:50

so and and that's you know again I think

71:53

that one of the best references in

71:55

whatever you do in life is is turning to

71:57

yourself and and for me it took some

71:59

time before I realized that just like

72:02

everyone else I'm a victim or I'm being

72:03

victimized to the time I'm in my values

72:06

are not being created solely by myself

72:09

they're being you know I'm being

72:10

influenced by number of different things

72:11

and that is something that I've you know

72:14

practiced for a number of years every

72:17

time I feel something's that whenever

72:19

something speaks to me in a clear way

72:21

I'm I'm these days assuming that I'm not

72:24

unique there's gonna be another bunch of

72:26

people just you know reacting in the

72:27

same way and when I first encountered an

72:30

electric motor bike and again I have no

72:33

you know story history there's no

72:36

romantic idea about making motorcycles

72:38

but when I encountered this this this

72:40

bike the first time it was like this is

72:42

really interesting again it's it's it's

72:45

Highland it doesn't pollute you're not

72:47

going to disturb your gonna be able to

72:49

kind of explore with respect to you know

72:52

the space that you're sharing with

72:54

fellow mushroom pickers or wolves or

72:56

Birds or whatever it might be in a good

72:58

way

72:59

and that the idea of exploring and being

73:02

on a vehicle taking you places reading I

73:05

don't know I was like immediately like

73:07

this is this I want to do this but it

73:12

you know for a number of years it was

73:13

just an idea about you know

73:15

I was I didn't get that mic at the time

73:17

and I think that technology at that time

73:19

hadn't come as far and when I read

73:22

reviews and so forth there the bike was

73:25

coming down but eventually I started

73:29

buying you know whatever there was in

73:30

the market in terms of these bikes and

73:32

and got hooked about the experience not

73:37

building a business from it but after a

73:39

while I kind of got into the the I had

73:42

you know I was passionate and I fell in

73:44

love with the the fact that what we're

73:47

doing what were being a part of will

73:50

actually tilt or turn the motorcycling

73:53

industry and the space and its user

73:55

matrix upside down it's pretty much

73:58

gonna be you know the opposite to what

74:01

motorcycling has been so far and that

74:03

doesn't mean excluding current

74:05

motorcycle people its they'll of course

74:07

be interested in that but there's so

74:09

many parameters that are actually the

74:11

opposite and that what that's what turn

74:14

me on there should be room then for a

74:17

brand new line of fashion surrounding

74:21

this yeah yeah yeah

74:23

absolutely and again I'm always a little

74:26

too eager in terms of you know getting

74:29

things started and I also realize and

74:32

this comes with with experience and H I

74:33

think that let's make sure not to

74:36

compromise with what you're meant to do

74:37

and be honest to your obligation and

74:41

your challenge and you promised in your

74:42

market which is basically making these

74:44

amazing bikes work according to what our

74:47

ambition has been and what we're

74:48

communicating but of course there's so

74:51

many different parameters to this you

74:53

know and this doesn't have to do you

74:55

know just doing opposite because we can

74:57

are speaking about myself I'd say that

75:00

on the bike I'm gonna need you know gear

75:03

functional gear pants with you know and

75:05

and jerseys and whatever with some kind

75:07

of a protection order ability or

75:09

whatever but do I want to look like a

75:11

band a play from a head spin with 48

75:13

different logotypes on my Jersey or like

75:15

a motocross guy I'm sure you do know and

75:19

in that sense of course there's a huge

75:20

opportunity for us together we change

75:22

the typology of the vehicle itself but

75:25

also changing that you know what are you

75:28

wearing how do you look

75:28

when you're you know on one of these

75:30

bikes and I'd say without you know

75:32

piggybacking or a cart on card or

75:35

anything else it's like a more work

75:37

we're oriented it kind of casual style

75:40

that we're looking to establish so you

75:42

know shorts and pants and and and

75:45

whatever it might be that would be

75:47

similar to what the style would be in

75:50

any other you know given situation and

75:52

luckily you have some experience from

75:53

that yes so so in that sense I think

75:56

that that not knowing that we're gonna

75:58

succeed but I think that it comes

76:02

without saying that we need to make this

76:04

happen all the way through and and

76:07

there's gonna be you know a way of

76:09

supporting the users with something

76:11

which is not the traditional MX dirt

76:15

bike style have you sold a lot of bikes

76:18

yet

76:19

yes we've sold the first thing that

76:21

happened we showed the bike for the

76:22

first time at the Outdoor Retailer show

76:24

in Denver a year ago and the week after

76:27

we went to Expo and that was just

76:29

showing a prototype basically and we

76:32

deliberately choose not to to show this

76:35

at motorbike shows we went to you know

76:37

where our fellow exhibitors would be

76:39

anything from Patagonia to North Face

76:41

and whatever and we speak internally

76:44

about this without again just you know

76:45

speaking about piggybacking on different

76:46

brands but what we do is meant to be

76:49

it's more Patagonian and Kawasaki the

76:52

whole thing and therefore it's evident

76:54

that we would go to two shows like that

76:56

to start with so we show the body here

76:58

yo and and in three and a half weeks we

77:00

had we stopped you know we there was an

77:03

offer being able to buy a bike from a

77:05

limited edition of 50 bikes and we sold

77:07

through those 50 bikes in three and a

77:09

half weeks to 50 15 different countries

77:12

and that was that was amazing and now

77:15

we're into you know pre-production and

77:17

we have a limited capacity we're able to

77:20

you know to to actually produce about

77:22

between 400 and 500 bikes this year 2019

77:26

and the production series rolled out

77:28

from the factory two and a half weeks

77:30

ago and it's just you know I don't know

77:32

if you're speaking about dates here

77:34

depending on when you're gonna broadcast

77:35

but anyhow we in the beginning of 2019

77:38

and we've delivered our first bikes and

77:41

all together

77:42

on an order we've you know all together

77:45

we've sold 120 bikes or something and

77:47

the ambition is to sell and deliver 400

77:49

bikes for 500 this year we're super you

77:52

know humbled about the fact that these

77:55

bikes are being you know it's still you

77:57

know the price is you know 13,000 bucks

78:00

or euros and no one has really ridden

78:03

the bikes yet so it's a big commitment

78:05

to our customers that we you know that

78:07

that they like what they get I've been

78:10

talking a lot with a friend about new

78:12

models around cars and I'm a petrol head

78:17

and I like having new cars but the

78:21

problem is in how things are constructed

78:23

right now if you lease a car you have to

78:26

lease it for three years as the leasing

78:28

isn't constructed in Sweden at least to

78:31

to have a car for one year and I could

78:33

have a used car that's two years old but

78:36

then only having it for a while have you

78:39

have you looked for different business

78:41

models as well as saying okay you you

78:44

lease your bike for four year or you you

78:48

don't

78:48

as as the person you have access to it

78:51

but you don't buy it yeah I'd say that

78:54

that right now we're trying to figure

78:56

out a number of different ways of

78:58

supporting or lubricating the ability to

79:00

actually get one of these bikes so for

79:04

instance how can we support the end

79:06

consumer with with payoff solutions how

79:08

can we support a hotel or a glamping

79:11

place to get 5 or 10 bikes as a an extra

79:15

service to their their guests through

79:16

leasing how can we make you know guided

79:20

tour operators to make me to be able to

79:22

buy five or ten bikes to have people you

79:25

don't come along and on tours it's their

79:27

rental opportunity for us with with

79:29

rental partners and so forth so that

79:31

makes is still being dealt with but to

79:33

be perfectly honest with you if looking

79:35

at the the new carpooling kind of or

79:39

vehicle pooling concept we don't have a

79:42

a model for it yet but we in in in in

79:46

discussions with pole star which is the

79:48

Volvo electric car brand we hope to

79:51

establish with Volvo in general you know

79:54

structures in terms of

79:56

of rental and and leasing and so forth

79:59

because we unable to support that

80:01

ourselves our our financial reality is

80:04

tuned too little and too small to be

80:06

able to to actually offer smart

80:09

solutions like that but I had a really

80:11

interesting contact the other day from

80:13

one of the founders of lift which is one

80:16

of the comparators to Oberon in in

80:18

America and through this guy I got a

80:22

request if we could produce a hundred

80:24

thousand electric motor bike so that was

80:25

like it sounds amazing but we're not

80:29

that player because you're gonna need

80:31

something which is more robust that

80:32

people actually and this is all about

80:34

you know like the scooters in town but

80:36

the perspective of you know what the

80:39

scooters in the city might work but what

80:41

about three to twenty five case if you

80:43

need a commuting vessel it's probably

80:45

you know a smart thing to do a motorbike

80:47

and this really shows how this business

80:49

is developing and I'm sure that it will

80:52

happen they they'll do it and you'll see

80:54

motorbikes like the scooters taking care

80:57

of another kind of distance from the

81:00

city in in commuting and there will

81:02

always be guys who wants to you know own

81:05

their own or to have a different level

81:08

of performance and so forth so I mean

81:10

we're building a company which is in the

81:11

end I you know in five years from now

81:13

we're going to see itself a thousand

81:15

bikes per year in ten years from now

81:16

we're looking to sell seventy thousand

81:18

bikes sounds like a hell of a lot and it

81:20

is but that's also happening in

81:22

conjunction with the society changing

81:25

the transition in terms of commuting and

81:27

people actually deciding that I'm

81:28

willing to leave my car back home or I'm

81:31

actually gonna sell my car and use

81:33

public transportation maybe getting

81:35

myself an electric bike because it's the

81:37

perfect commuting muscle I'm in that

81:39

whole process I think that it's gonna

81:41

take whether it's gonna be twenty twenty

81:42

two or twenty twenty twenty three or

81:44

twenty four we'll see but we're gonna

81:45

get to a point where the values in the

81:48

market the maturity of actually changing

81:51

means the transportation when

81:52

legislation is kicking in when it comes

81:55

to infrastructure and not being able to

81:56

drive cars and cities and whatever when

81:59

there's a transition it's gonna happen

82:00

really fast and that's also when we will

82:02

be able to accelerate our business to be

82:05

you know when I speak to investors

82:07

that's what we of course pointing

82:10

that we're building a brand where one

82:13

you know the ambition is to establish a

82:15

position where we're being perceived as

82:16

the leader in in in in in that and then

82:19

you'd say but what about an off-road car

82:21

in the city how are you going to promote

82:22

the idea of commuting with an off-road

82:24

bike and I mean then again it's very

82:27

similar to what you know why would

82:28

people you know use the Land Rovers or

82:30

jeeps or whatever you know developers

82:33

change chase Lions in Africa or for

82:35

military use and it's but you know but

82:38

actually it's kind of comfortable I am I

82:40

write a racing bike too like right now

82:42

that motorbike with a regular bike yeah

82:43

to to work and stuff yeah and now that

82:48

the electric bikes are coming yeah I

82:50

kind of feel that you know the only

82:51

reason I don't write a mountain bike is

82:53

because it's kind of heavy

82:55

yeah and if you have an electric bike

82:56

that's not an issue so you get we get

82:58

much more comfort yeah yeah so same

83:00

thing maybe with having off-road bikes

83:02

are comfortable yeah and we'd always

83:04

stick to off-road and in that says it's

83:05

not that we're proposing that don't use

83:08

your you know and people would be be

83:10

running their their their bikes from

83:11

leading your Schulman South component

83:13

broma

83:14

wherever it might be and similar you

83:15

know urban suburban situations around

83:18

the world the beauty here is that

83:20

depending on different legislation to

83:22

because in Canada you can practically go

83:24

anywhere with an off-road bike in Sweden

83:27

we have something called today insurance

83:28

log stiffening and anyhow so they're

83:31

very it's a different perspective

83:33

depending on which market you're in but

83:35

again being able to combine an amazing

83:38

you know exploring tool that promotes a

83:43

fun action and you know again being

83:46

sustainable sustainable and whatever

83:48

comes with that to use as your country

83:49

house during the weekends and so forth

83:51

and then use as a commuter bus I think

83:52

that makes sense I mean looking at what

83:55

the market is what we would you know

83:57

increasingly seeing people promoting

84:00

ideas of respect responsibility

84:02

sustainability together with an active

84:04

lifestyle and this is how this this

84:06

really you know comes together somehow

84:08

yeah we think and it's it's quiet and

84:10

it's clean yeah I mean it could be that

84:13

like in Norway where you can drive your

84:16

electric car and in the bus lane I mean

84:18

there could be a similar question to the

84:20

absolutely hitting noise yeah

84:22

yeah sure and I think that with all you

84:24

know again it's amazing in this country

84:26

that that we're letting the snowmobiles

84:28

do what they're doing is I love snow

84:30

peas when I'm on one but if it's that

84:33

day that when I'm alone you know on my

84:35

skis and there's six guys on snowmobiles

84:37

approaching from behind you love to

84:39

worry boy it's like get out of here man

84:41

you've destroyed my day so Stefan how

84:43

far off is the cake snowmobile it's

84:46

pretty far off because it's despite if I

84:48

you know without I there are a few

84:50

products going on around there's one in

84:52

Sweden I know doing doing just that and

84:55

I think again getting back to the

84:58

properties of an electric drivetrain

85:00

they don't are automatically fall in

85:05

love with with situation where there's a

85:07

lot of you know mud or loose snow and

85:10

whatever it might be

85:11

it needs the traction to perform at its

85:15

best but I'm sure that technology will

85:17

come around that somehow but it's not

85:20

gonna be us it's gonna be someone else

85:21

doing that now yeah yeah I've been

85:23

driving I switched to electric cars four

85:27

years ago yeah never looked to be at

85:30

least look at every car magazine I love

85:32

the hot exotic cars yeah and then I had

85:35

my first test drive and I'd like to call

85:37

and I've I just I'd never look at a car

85:40

magazine again I never did you know I

85:42

did this is just such a fantastic

85:44

experience I think yeah and they're all

85:47

so amazing in the winter yeah you know

85:50

talking about snowmobiles the traction

85:52

and like how they handle and because

85:55

there's no lag they ask them so just how

85:58

they perform in in in the winter is

86:00

extraordinary yeah and I think that

86:03

again it's it's like with the combustion

86:05

engines if you're off road and there's a

86:07

lot of snow on whatever more ice the the

86:10

the I mean at this point where there's

86:13

no clutch and when there's no chance to

86:15

actually increase your rpm and through

86:18

the clutch getting through all of these

86:19

challenging situations I think with the

86:22

car in the street it does support all

86:25

your needs but getting back on you know

86:27

outdoor or off-road there are other

86:30

challenges that need to be solved and

86:32

they will resolve the force there is no

86:34

clutch ya know

86:36

gears none of that stuff that's kind of

86:38

a little bit intimidating the first time

86:41

you ride a bike yeah so it's just way

86:44

more accessible something yeah yeah for

86:47

everybody yeah and and I think that that

86:49

it's the you know speaking a bit about

86:52

the motorcycling culture it's it's very

86:54

excluding I mean looking at motorbike

86:56

from a different number of different

86:58

perspectives they all kind of cluster

87:00

themselves in different groups I mean

87:03

anything from house angels to MX guys or

87:06

vintage customized bikes or whatever it

87:09

might be and it has all of these

87:11

attributes to it and so forth that have

87:13

been them developed over over the years

87:14

well this is totally accessible the

87:17

simplicity of riding means that anyone

87:18

can ride and on our bikes there's a

87:20

riding mode

87:21

knob so if you're a beginner it's max

87:23

forty five kids per hour there's an

87:24

enduro mode which is gonna you know

87:26

promote longevity or battery endurance

87:29

pretty much and it's it's a good action

87:30

and then there's a gear number three

87:33

where everything is full-on so that

87:36

means that any one depending on your

87:38

form experience can get on this bike and

87:40

you know experience it and in there in

87:43

in level where they're experiencing and

87:45

in capacity or capability so again it's

87:49

it's really inviting and inclusive one

87:52

of the opposites to traditional

87:54

motorbike so what do you think we'll see

87:56

Harley Harley Davidson like all electric

88:00

hardly there this one or they launched

88:02

one a month ago oh really

88:03

yeah yeah it's really interesting so so

88:05

they launched a big one and again

88:07

without bashing a Harley Davidson at

88:10

this point what they're doing is really

88:11

important to us as well because they've

88:12

taken the step being potentially them

88:14

the harshest most you know macho and and

88:18

and and conservative guys in their sons

88:20

and they've brought the heavy piece to

88:22

the market which is more like a you know

88:24

thousand CC kinda bike but they're also

88:28

experimenting with with smaller light

88:30

bikes which is also good because or not

88:33

because and I don't want to you know

88:35

it's it's all you know I supported 100

88:39

you know all the way through just as

88:42

we're speaking about before when when

88:44

when stat between us and on Samson

88:46

versus Apple or that that was another

88:48

conversation I had this morning

88:49

well it was someone met there the the

88:52

part developers or the marketers from

88:53

from from something like ten years ago

88:55

saying now you worried about the app and

88:57

the iPhone now how's that gonna affect

88:58

your business and they were like this is

89:00

gonna be wonderful because suddenly the

89:02

average price of a mobile phone has

89:04

increased you know from 100 bucks to

89:07

2,000 bucks and it's it's gonna bring

89:10

take us all on a journey that we we

89:13

couldn't do or foresee without them so

89:15

in that sense I think it's wonderful

89:17

that that holiday Visan which is

89:19

potentially the opposite in terms of

89:20

culture to what cake its brand is do we

89:23

do what they're doing so yes you're

89:27

talking a lot about values in terms of

89:31

building business but also in terms of

89:34

the consumers and how it's how it's

89:37

changing how do you think that the

89:41

consciousness of the world if you would

89:44

describe like five values where you

89:47

think the at least the more Western

89:50

world will move towards in the next 5-10

89:54

years what would you say they are

89:57

I'd say honesty transparency respect

90:04

sustainability and that was for right

90:09

and I'd stick to for fun maybe yeah

90:14

thank you no but maybe that doesn't you

90:20

think there is a big shift in

90:22

consciousness going on

90:23

I you know there are different sides to

90:26

this I think that what I'm saying you

90:28

know something a bit like Jesus in that

90:30

sense is also being confronted or

90:32

conflicted by a number of other streams

90:35

values and transcend society which are

90:37

actually the absolute opposite which

90:39

worries me a lot

90:40

but I think that we're in a situation

90:42

where the discrepancy or differences in

90:45

terms of mindset values and directions

90:47

haven't it's you know I would say have

90:51

never ever been before because I'm not

90:53

been through 19

90:55

30 through 1945 but III say that it's

91:00

it's at the same time as the level of

91:06

insight and obligation and

91:09

responsibility is increasing I think

91:11

that we're also seeing a throughout my

91:15

life so far the worst kind of

91:18

destructive kind of anti humanistic

91:22

things going on so yes and no I mean

91:28

it's a very polarized world

91:30

yeah and I've listened actually to two

91:32

interviews with Jack Dorsey just a few

91:35

past few days yeah

91:36

the CEO of Twitter yeah and it's just

91:41

fun tyreal II encourage all of you to

91:44

listen to that because that's just so

91:45

interesting to hear somebody who

91:46

actually has a lot of that honest

91:49

conscious like creating the platform

91:51

where this that is accelerates this

91:54

polarization yeah but it's also the key

91:56

to solving it in a way yeah because it's

91:58

like the public square where everybody's

92:00

talking here and they are trying to

92:02

fight that polarization like you're

92:05

finding ways to do that but it's just so

92:06

interesting to hear somebody let that

92:08

has all that honest like yeah

92:10

interesting and here we are talking

92:12

about our you know businesses and

92:14

problems yeah here's this guy you know

92:16

having that on us like agenda yeah

92:18

I think it's one of the things that it's

92:21

gonna be a competitive edge in the years

92:24

to come is going to be very clear values

92:29

because all in all if you're gonna

92:33

choose a bank for example so if you have

92:37

five or ten or fifteen options or

92:40

whatever and they're pretty similar it's

92:42

it's gonna be that's gonna be one of the

92:45

major factors that's gonna decide who

92:49

you gonna work with who you can align

92:51

because value alignment is really

92:54

important for relationships I totally

92:56

agree with you and without being too

92:58

stupid here and just again reflecting on

93:00

on your own behavior your own thinking

93:03

I'm a hobby drummer and I buy too many

93:06

drum kits and I was just about to get

93:08

might have another great kid when I

93:10

realized that I'm not gonna you know

93:13

support and comply with what's gone on

93:14

with America right now and not shooting

93:17

it at anybody specific but I I'm not

93:22

gonna speak about what I don't like or

93:24

dislike and it ended up much with myself

93:25

buying a Yamaha kid from Japan instead

93:28

and that is totally value-based it was

93:31

like emotionally value-based in terms of

93:35

choosing not to but something else that

93:38

was not on the map beforehand maybe I've

93:41

softened a bit now realizing that there

93:43

is a dynamic going on over there as well

93:45

so there's no reason for me to punish

93:47

the single company just because I felt

93:49

the way I did but I had a weak spot and

93:52

it truly emphasizes the fact that it's

93:55

it's a cultural value oriented behavior

94:00

I think that Tesla has been amazing at

94:04

that because they really increased the

94:07

price of a medium-sized sedan with 50%

94:11

and having I know that you're a very big

94:13

fan of your Tesla having a great product

94:16

and still being able to charge a 50%

94:21

premium compared to other great products

94:24

I think it's it's amazing and I think

94:26

one of the one of the strongest part of

94:28

that is the the values of Tesla not just

94:31

a product it's a 50% better car yeah now

94:36

yeah of course I think it's a with them

94:39

as I think with you as well and with

94:42

sound and all others who talked about

94:44

the product is great I mean the Tesla is

94:49

the best performing like sports car in

94:52

the world if you look at the Tesla

94:53

Roadster for sale and that's kind of how

94:57

they've sold it they haven't sold it by

94:59

saying okay we're here to change the

95:01

world you know they do because of what

95:04

they are they are an electric car and

95:06

and they kind of have that on their

95:07

agenda but they're also producing a car

95:09

that's performing really well and I

95:11

think the combination of that it's so

95:13

interesting to see like how you can

95:15

create something that's more fun to ride

95:18

like your bike is much lighter bike you

95:22

performs better but it's also in in line

95:25

with where we need to go in the world

95:26

this is not one or the other and I think

95:29

that kind of practical approach to not

95:32

demand from people that they're actually

95:34

in it to save the world but they're

95:35

actually getting a great better product

95:37

that's what we can do as innovators and

95:39

entrepreneurs and I think again just you

95:42

know touching on that something we

95:43

started out by you know the the aspect

95:46

of vanity which is basically something

95:48

that sounds very shallow but it has its

95:50

the deepest kind of human instinct I'd

95:54

say and and if something resonates to

95:57

your intellectual ability to analyze the

96:00

product whether it makes sense you know

96:01

what it supports and us and performs

96:04

like and the fact that it has and

96:08

appreciate it kind of look to it

96:10

combining the idea between what what's

96:13

brain and heart in that sounds that

96:14

combination is unique and I think that's

96:16

what Tesla's done - yeah which is an

96:18

American company by the way yeah yeah

96:20

but but yeah they're amazing American

96:25

companies I won't be as bash about and

96:28

generalizing about because of course

96:29

there's yeah and I also want to say

96:31

about that point because I think that is

96:33

actually one of the problems in the

96:35

world that we are looking at people as

96:37

groups in that sense so I mean if you

96:39

look at Sweden Sweden is also a divided

96:43

country at the moment and America is

96:46

pretty much split in half yeah so I mean

96:49

in a way you know the other half will

96:51

think that's unfair yeah so and I think

96:54

just that and what's happening in modern

96:57

society right now is that we are

96:58

polarizing the society and we're getting

97:01

further and further into our team colors

97:03

yes you know and that I think is very

97:06

dangerous yeah and and III need to admit

97:09

that I'm actually a recent or a part of

97:11

that as well I was speaking about what

97:13

we did you know I spoke about before in

97:14

terms so identifying clusters in

97:16

different parts of the world these days

97:18

we're not speaking about countries and

97:19

who lives there and so forth we're

97:21

speaking about value oriented clusters

97:22

and how they connect and they may live

97:25

wherever you know around the globe and

97:26

that's how we target people to establish

97:28

that key team is feeling and the

97:30

following and whatever it might be and

97:32

of course that is a problem and and I

97:35

agree when idea

97:35

speaking of my Sweden because I think

97:37

there are a lot of value oriented

97:39

cultural behavior thinking and so forth

97:42

that is actually promoting our ability

97:45

to perform well in to some extent but

97:48

the gal I realized that Jesus who's Who

97:52

am I saying this because I'm just

97:54

talking a little bit of a very isolated

97:57

chunk of people not representing the

98:00

collective Sweden of course I mean it's

98:03

also it's it's interesting because in a

98:06

way it's a good force and a bad force

98:09

within the same behavior and within the

98:11

same trend yeah the one force you know

98:14

the bad force being that we're kind of

98:15

splitting up the the the kind of good

98:17

force is that we are joining together in

98:19

these groups where we find our identity

98:21

because they're what you're talking

98:23

about vanity another word for that could

98:25

be identity yeah you know and group

98:27

identity and you buy a product to kind

98:30

of show who you are and yeah and that

98:32

binds people together yeah but but again

98:35

it's bringing just that vanity aspect

98:37

one step further which makes it more to

98:40

me it kind of puts the light on the

98:45

concept of identity from a at another

98:49

level i dentist probably the truth

98:50

aspect of who you are the combination of

98:53

your own idea about who you are

98:55

profiling whatever you're doing and the

98:57

outside image of who you are and when

98:59

that overlaps that becomes the real you

99:01

somehow but I think the vanity aspect

99:03

here is interesting because what is it

99:05

that actually does people do what

99:06

they're doing and again speaking out the

99:09

brain and heart thing people want to

99:11

look good and they want to be perceived

99:14

as smart and that's why that brain thing

99:17

is important because when you argue for

99:19

the choices you make where the body is

99:21

buying a Tesla or Polk helmet or a

99:23

Gretsch acoustic guitar it's all about

99:26

you know telling the story about there's

99:30

this new mic here which is super good

99:31

and it does this and this and that and

99:33

then you love the style of the product

99:35

and you look together with it and and

99:37

aesthetics in that sound chance is

99:38

something which is is subjective because

99:40

it's not about comparing aesthetics with

99:43

the ultimate the the models of the world

99:46

or whatever is perfect it's about

99:49

feeling

99:49

comfortable in in the level of

99:52

aesthetics that you would be able to be

99:55

a part of being who you are but that

99:57

brain thing is super important to be

99:59

able to tell your neighbor that I've

100:01

made this decision decision because that

100:03

because this and this and this and that

100:04

and I think that what's driving that is

100:07

the vanity of being perceived as smart

100:08

because that has become such an

100:10

important thing in this time in history

100:12

yeah more than ever before what what

100:14

were major learnings that you had with

100:17

yourself like aha moments where is that

100:22

okay

100:23

this is a game changer this is something

100:26

I can really recommend if you're an

100:29

entrepreneur to do or do not do I say

100:32

that the two main you know bumper

100:34

stickers that I would you know use every

100:36

other day then the first one would be

100:39

trust and that's potentially the fifth

100:40

one that we played around about whether

100:43

it should be fun you need to trust

100:44

people you need to trust the guys that

100:46

you're working with you need to trust

100:48

your your customers you need to trust

100:49

your suppliers you're going to be

100:51

disappointed

100:52

number of times but the amount of energy

100:55

being spent if you don't trust people is

100:57

gonna kill any organization so opening

101:01

up you know supporting the idea of trust

101:04

it's gonna get you so much farther in

101:07

faster that's one thing the other thing

101:10

is is potentially I one-liner on that

101:16

bumper sticker short but I know I might

101:18

get to it but that's gonna be a long

101:19

bomb could be the normal car yeah it's a

101:22

big car ride so it that bumper sticker

101:24

speaks about the fact that the worst

101:28

thing you can do is to surround yourself

101:30

with with naysayers or people are that

101:33

our problem oriented rather than

101:36

solution oriented and my biggest

101:39

disappointments in life throughout my

101:41

working life has been when when I'm

101:43

hiring problem oriented guys whenever

101:47

there's something someone comes with a

101:48

great idea or there's a vision we need

101:50

to make this in six months or three

101:52

months and there I it's impossible we

101:53

can't do that my best advice is that get

101:57

rid of those people as fast as you

101:59

possibly can because they're killing the

102:01

organization

102:03

and you spent so much time with these

102:04

guys and I would say that even though

102:07

you're a your solution-oriented guys

102:09

saying that we can do it

102:13

have I ever not succeeded in doing

102:16

something that we said we could do

102:18

possibly I can't remember really but I'm

102:22

sure that 95% of the times as long as

102:25

you say yes and as long as the team

102:27

commits commits to the US you will make

102:31

it happen and that's that's the and

102:33

that's that that's it's so abstract I

102:36

would say just setting up goals together

102:38

with a team it has there's this there's

102:41

magic where goals tend to be you know

102:44

kicking in by themselves because the

102:47

team shares the idea about where you're

102:48

going so maybe your bumper sticker

102:50

should say optimism yeah so yeah I had a

102:54

there was a recruitment specialist I

102:56

talked to who told me that you should

102:57

not be afraid of hiring people that are

102:59

late to the meeting because they're

103:02

optimists yeah okay that's interesting

103:04

but it goes back to what we talked about

103:06

before I mean if we choose to call them

103:10

optimists oh yes yes yeah the office

103:12

optimists loves the challenge yeah you

103:15

know he sees like oh we could do this

103:16

yeah you know and the pessimist is like

103:18

oh ha this is never gonna work

103:19

no yeah it's the the the the difference

103:22

in my world would be the the pessimist

103:25

saying impossible while the optimist

103:27

would say yeah we'll make it yeah and

103:30

you want to have people who say we will

103:31

make it the impossible ask you know get

103:34

dudes again get rid of them

103:36

I would like to ask you one thing that

103:38

we asked a lot of people that we have

103:39

here on the show because we are after

103:42

all that the main purpose here is to get

103:43

like the entrepreneurs beard going

103:46

supercharge entrepreneurship in Sweden

103:48

and the politicians will be an important

103:51

part of that yeah what would you like to

103:53

say I think we have a lot of politicians

103:54

listening to this and what would you

103:56

like to say to them well I guess I

103:59

should have prepared myself I'm a bit

104:01

embarrassed about myself because

104:02

politics has become a very low

104:06

prioritized interest of mine as I'm

104:08

getting older because I think that that

104:11

a lot of the the reality is actually

104:14

happening outside

104:16

what the politicians are doing I think

104:19

that the number of initiatives happening

104:20

among you know entrepreneurs or whether

104:24

it be you know creative fields or

104:27

whatever it might be

104:28

it has a organic dinah dynamism to it

104:32

which is built into the process where

104:34

actually where politics had a much more

104:36

important role fifty or a hundred years

104:41

ago with making sure that we established

104:44

a society that had a decent kind of

104:46

balance you know built into it and maybe

104:50

it's time again for the politicians to

104:52

take a big you know step but John

104:54

stepped forward because dealing with the

104:56

the polarization that we're speaking

104:57

about and so forth that is it's

104:59

threatening a number of different things

105:02

and and you know us as individuals

105:05

families or collectives so in that

105:08

sounds I think that politicians tend to

105:11

be very reactive and they need to be

105:14

proactive so my what was the question

105:17

whether I had a advice advice yeah so

105:21

become proactive yeah basically I think

105:23

after all politicians set like the the

105:28

ground rules for for what we can work

105:30

with yeah here and and it go comes you

105:33

know it in practical terms is like

105:35

legislation for you know labor laws its

105:38

taxation of different things and the

105:40

taxation system right now it's a very

105:41

complex regardless if you think it's to

105:44

hire two oh it's definitely complex yeah

105:47

and that's that's hard for you know

105:49

especially if you're new yeah

105:51

so speaking specifically dishes on on

105:55

entrepreneurship as what could companies

105:57

what could helps we didn't become better

105:58

in relation yeah and I would say that

106:01

that again I think that that the climate

106:03

for for running businesses in Sweden is

106:05

pretty pretty good but I think that

106:08

there there might be you know there's so

106:10

many businesses being started and closed

106:14

because I think that they never get to

106:16

the point of actually making money so

106:19

I'd say that you know before I

106:22

understood how the whole you know how

106:25

things came together

106:26

I was running in number of different

106:27

businesses

106:29

totally uh you know convinced that the

106:33

system was made to keep small businesses

106:36

out from the ability of actually become

106:39

profitable and just you know feeding the

106:41

society or wait with taxes it took me

106:44

like ten years before I ran my first

106:46

profitable business and of course I

106:50

think that being energized by seeing

106:52

that what I deliver or what I invest

106:55

actually has an upside quicker than

106:57

ladies you know soon in the later would

106:59

be an interesting aspect so like you

107:02

know businesses up to whatever ten or

107:04

twenty five or fifty million in turnover

107:06

could potentially be excused in terms of

107:09

a number of different punishments or

107:10

punishments I love paying taxes to be

107:12

honest with you being a father and you

107:14

know just having kids and realizing that

107:17

that the quality of what we're being so

107:19

with in that sense for instance is

107:21

amazing so I'm not saying that taxes are

107:25

perfect they probably needs to be

107:26

improved in a number of ways but from an

107:28

entrepreneurial perspective I think that

107:30

young companies need to have a

107:32

lubricated environment supporting their

107:35

ability to become profitable before

107:38

they're being punished with heavy taxes

107:39

we are also a start-up yeah and we're

107:44

all startups however you look at it I

107:46

mean you have a lot of experience and

107:49

the success behind you and and in front

107:52

of you but what advice would you give to

107:55

us that's a tough one I think that again

107:59

you know what we've been talking up it

108:02

you know until up till now and what you

108:03

your experience is also you're

108:05

successful you you've you've done all

108:07

this but in a different field to me and

108:09

I think just continuing doing what we're

108:11

doing trying to reach for something or

108:14

share something with a larger purpose

108:16

than just running a business being able

108:18

to influence people to contribute to in

108:21

a direction that we need to support it's

108:23

the obligation towards you know each

108:25

other and planet Earth and whatever it

108:27

might be to increase the level of of

108:29

relevancy and quality of life and that's

108:33

what you've been doing in your career so

108:35

far and my you know stick to what you're

108:37

good at

108:38

and you get what you're doing so I just

108:40

I know that you're gonna be extremely

108:42

successfully that sounds - so that's the

108:46

boring kind of advice I would have but

108:48

it's also I think what I believe in

108:52

which is true to me if you're being

108:54

lapped down and I am still being let

108:55

down numerous times by anything from

108:57

investors to bankers or whatever it

108:59

might be saying that I don't believe in

109:01

your what you're doing I mean why is

109:03

this gonna happen now I had that you

109:05

know a good example of that is when I

109:06

was trying to convince investors ten

109:08

years ago 12 years ago but poke that

109:10

everyone's gonna wear helmet in ten

109:11

years from now and people were no no way

109:13

I'm never gonna wear him and their

109:15

reasons to why this was gonna happen no

109:17

rocket science anybody who could see

109:19

what was going on would promote the idea

109:21

that that was gonna happen and again

109:24

don't be proud and that's the other

109:27

aspect of of being an entrepreneur even

109:29

though it doesn't matter how successful

109:30

you've been you always end up with

109:32

people that you will need to communicate

109:34

to for potential you know outcome in a

109:39

good way supporting what you're trying

109:40

to achieve and you'll also run into

109:43

people throughout your career and and

109:46

and startup hum it doesn't matter how

109:48

many startups you've done you'll end up

109:50

being disappointed because people don't

109:51

get your and sometimes it's your fault

109:53

because you're unclear about what you're

109:55

trying to share but and I and and this

109:58

is this is something that also takes

110:01

patience I was you know again I need to

110:05

you know knock in a number of different

110:06

doors and I was in this this this

110:09

startup contest with the serendipity

110:11

challenge in this for this summer and it

110:15

was fun I mean we were selected among a

110:18

number of different companies to be able

110:19

to pitch our case and so forth then I

110:21

said wow that's a wonderful you know

110:23

situation for me to share what we're

110:26

doing and potentially get some extra

110:27

support through through and someone

110:29

would say that you can end up in that

110:31

community I mean it's only young young

110:33

startups or whatever but I'm like I want

110:35

to share and it's it's a challenge I'll

110:37

give it a chance and then we were able

110:40

to pitch our case for three minutes and

110:41

then in the audience there and there was

110:43

a panel of judges you know saying yes or

110:46

no is this good enough to call if I work

110:49

for whatever and then there was a grumpy

110:53

lady and the panel they wanted the judge

110:54

to say that

110:55

made my presentation and she was like

110:57

well the bike looks ugly

111:00

have you thought about design and I'm

111:03

like need to take a few steps back and

111:07

be super you know humbled and patient

111:10

about the situation and saying that yes

111:12

I I believe design is important and we

111:15

all have different ideas about what's

111:17

good and what's bad and so far we've had

111:19

a bit of attention and so far and she

111:22

was like oh no you need to invest in

111:23

design and I'm like let's become this

111:26

layer I mean I could have left the stage

111:31

and just gone out then and being your

111:33

angry do you know who I am and what I've

111:35

gone through I guess so that you

111:37

need to accept and just you'll move

111:39

forward yeah small little fun example

111:41

about how reality I'll stop being thrown

111:44

in your face you know and that that I

111:47

think is a pretty great note to end at

111:49

yeah I'm just so happy you came by and

111:51

it's been an amazing time talking to you

111:54

thank you so much and I like your design

111:56

thank you thank you for listening to

112:00

what's in the water

112:01

our ultimate goal with this podcast is

112:04

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112:07

Scandinavia in the world

112:09

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112:11

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112:54

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112:56

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113:01

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113:03

[Music]