Fighting Fear with Neuroscientist Katarina Gospic

Fighting Fear with Neuroscientist Katarina Gospic

Fear is probably the number one enemy of entrepreneurship and we invited Sweden's most famous and colorful neuroscientist Katarina Gospic to dig deep into what fear is, how it relates to entrepreneurship, and what we can do to fight our fears and win.

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Transcript

Note: This is an auto-generated transcript that will butcher words and names sometimes (Our favorite is when our guest Johannes Cullberg became “Your Hummus Cool Bye”). The format is not optimized for reading, but for searching for specific segments. Hence the timestamps etc. Happy searching!

00:01

in the next 25 years the rise of

00:04

automation threatens to create mass

00:07

unemployment to turn this critical

00:09

problem into an advantage is crucial

00:12

yeah we want to take the optimistic view

00:15

here because this development will free

00:17

up resources for us to start creating

00:20

new companies and new innovations and

00:23

new solutions to some of the biggest

00:25

challenges of our time that's why we

00:28

created the what's in the water

00:29

initiative to supercharge

00:31

entrepreneurship in Scandinavia and the

00:33

rest of the world turning this critical

00:36

problem into an opportunity where

00:40

prosperity is created not destroyed in

00:42

this second episode of the what's in the

00:45

water podcast we want to address what is

00:47

probably a single biggest inhibitor of

00:51

entrepreneurship in the world fear we

00:55

invited Sweden's most famous

00:57

neuroscientist Caterina gospel to talk

00:59

to us about fear and see if we can find

01:02

ways to help you fight your way through

01:05

your fears and reach new levels of

01:08

achievement Caterina is currently bright

01:10

in an entire book about fear which will

01:14

be her seventh

01:16

Katherina gospic is also a very driven

01:19

entrepreneur with an optimism and a

01:22

drive and a playfulness that is super

01:24

contagious and we welcome our dear

01:27

friend Catarina goth bitch to the studio

01:30

welcome

01:32

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01:55

so hello and welcome Catarina gospel so

01:59

fantastic to have you here thank you I

02:01

think the entire country of Sweden know

02:03

exactly who you are

02:05

oh but we also have an international

02:07

audience so for them who is Catarina

02:10

Gossage so Catarina gah speech she has

02:13

background as a physiologist a medical

02:16

doctor and a PhD in cognitive

02:19

neuroscience and from the latter I got

02:24

my nickname the brain researcher once I

02:28

finished my academic work I just quit

02:34

and went into business started my own

02:37

company and then I have yeah I've been

02:42

working with different companies and

02:44

different projects and a bit of

02:47

everything and I have also written six

02:50

books and one book is coming in a couple

02:54

of months seven is it a secret

02:57

what that book is no not really I I will

03:00

reveal it now no that's why you're here

03:05

so it will be about fear for me fear has

03:10

been sometimes controlling my life yeah

03:13

and I learned a definition long time ago

03:15

which is everything and run is that

03:20

the scientific definition it is yeah

03:23

that's what they came up with all these

03:25

years of research so maybe that's the

03:28

title of the book everything in run

03:30

I love it yeah I will actually suggest

03:32

that we just thought of fear but they

03:35

asked me what the under title should be

03:37

so now we know so it's gonna be a dot

03:40

between each letter X dot you don't

03:42

either are ya

03:43

fear is such a major inhibitor of

03:46

entrepreneurship maybe the biggest one

03:48

yeah and that when we talked about that

03:50

that's what we came up with maybe we

03:52

should do an episode on fear and then we

03:54

started talking about it and turns out

03:56

not only is the number one

03:58

neuroscientist in Sweden

04:00

perfect to discuss fear with she's

04:02

writing a book about it right now and

04:04

how come you're writing a book about

04:06

this how do you pick the topic that's a

04:09

very good question it usually it just

04:11

comes to me

04:12

so my first book was about the brain and

04:15

decision-making and that was what I

04:18

broke my thesis about so it felt very

04:20

naturally to then write my first book

04:22

about that my second book was about the

04:25

social brain and that was things that

04:27

did not fit into the first book and then

04:30

I have kind of encountered different

04:32

things in life and then I kind of get

04:35

inspired and I just feel like I need to

04:37

write about it and fear came from that

04:41

lots of people are very afraid today I

04:44

mean we say that we have it very good in

04:47

the world in terms of different

04:49

standards and how we live in all of

04:51

those things but still we have lots of

04:55

disease and the mental health is kind of

04:57

going down people are more stressed so

05:00

then I felt very inspired to write about

05:03

that from a fear perspective and also

05:06

the most important brain structure for

05:09

fear is my favorite brain structure the

05:12

amygdala so it also feels like I'm going

05:17

back to my roots to the brains root

05:20

exactly yeah yes so when we struggle to

05:24

survive

05:25

yeah and struggle to get food on the

05:26

table we didn't have that much time for

05:28

fear it could it be that we now we have

05:30

so much to lose we encounter fear more

05:33

often in our daily lives yeah and I also

05:36

think that we have limited uncertainty

05:40

in the small things by controlling them

05:43

with technology so if I get lost on my

05:48

way here I can always call you or if I'm

05:50

late or you know something like that and

05:53

that's the way of controlling these

05:54

small things but that also means that we

05:57

are not exposed to this kind of

05:59

uncertainty in our everyday life whereas

06:03

if we look at it from a bigger

06:05

perspective things are becoming more

06:07

uncertain in terms of our economy or our

06:10

work it's like today people don't stay

06:13

in the same

06:14

Bini for 30 years it's more like a gig

06:17

economy you go in shortly you do your

06:20

thing and then you go on to the next and

06:22

lots of people find us very difficult

06:24

because it creates uncertainty and

06:26

that's actually one of the strongest

06:28

triggers of amygdala so that gives us

06:31

fear and that can also then go to

06:35

becoming in society and we start

06:37

worrying and going into those states and

06:40

then we started feeling bad and it's

06:43

fear do you think that's an important

06:46

thing or a part of entrepreneurship for

06:49

sure and I also think it's very

06:51

important to highlight that fear can

06:54

both be an obstacle but it can also be

06:56

this great force that can push us toward

07:00

something because if we have a lot to

07:03

lose we can also work harder and things

07:07

like that so when it comes to

07:08

entrepreneurship for example you both

07:10

have had lots of employees and I mean

07:14

reassuring that they will get their

07:16

paycheck every month is very very

07:19

stressful right and then you can start

07:21

feeling a bit scared am I gonna be able

07:24

to do this you know will we get this

07:26

deal and such but that also makes us

07:28

work much harder to just make it happen

07:31

and then maybe that also leads to these

07:33

big deals we make and yeah so it's also

07:37

a part of our development that is the

07:39

bottom line of entrepreneurship somehow

07:41

that you take a lot of risk and then you

07:44

have some upside you know hopefully yes

07:47

and at least there's some chance of an

07:49

upside so but that risk you're taking

07:52

that triggers fear and people of course

07:54

I mean the goal of what we're doing here

07:56

is to try to make more people go into

07:58

entrepreneurship and take these risks

08:00

because we think that's necessary for

08:01

the society right now I want to really

08:04

dig into that in a minute but first

08:06

before we do that I just want to kind of

08:08

understand your career so far how do you

08:10

feel so far about your career

08:13

I feel very pleased and I feel that I've

08:18

made the right decisions really walking

08:22

on my own path because my interest for

08:26

the brain started when I was about four

08:27

years old

08:28

it's one of my first memories when I'm

08:30

in the bathroom

08:32

playing with my thoughts and what I did

08:34

was I closed my eyes and kind of tried

08:38

to think of different items that popped

08:40

up in my brain so one thing that I

08:43

thought it was strawberries so if you

08:46

can do this exercise with me actually so

08:48

if you close your eyes and you think of

08:50

a strawberry you can actually see the

08:53

strawberry in front of you right and

08:54

then you can add a strawberry and you

08:57

will see two strawberries and you try to

09:01

add another one in another one and what

09:03

I was really fascinated about was to

09:05

really understand what made these

09:08

strawberries actually pop up you know

09:10

could I actually feel what's happening

09:13

in my brain that gives rise to this

09:16

strawberry and I was very inspired by a

09:22

cartoon called Lucky Luke who was faster

09:24

than his shadow so I just thought of all

09:27

these strawberries really quick and I

09:29

was like okay now but I couldn't really

09:31

catch this thing happening in my brain

09:34

so I thought of you know bunnies cars

09:38

everything but I didn't really get it

09:40

but from there my interest for the brain

09:44

started so ever since I was really young

09:46

I always wanted to work with the brain

09:49

and you know learn everything that I

09:51

could so I always imagined that I would

09:54

become a doctor a brain researcher and

09:56

that I would win the Nobel Prize

09:59

but then once I started to study I

10:03

realized that this doctor thing maybe it

10:07

wasn't really for me you know because

10:10

people told me what to do and you know

10:13

you should start at a certain time and

10:15

you should stop at another time and if

10:17

you had ideas they were not very

10:19

welcoming about them I was just about to

10:23

turn 25 once I got my degree so I looked

10:28

very young and people didn't take me

10:29

seriously and in parallel with my

10:32

medical studies I had also taken a

10:34

degree in physiology and I had started

10:37

my PhD in cognitive neuroscience

10:39

I had lots of ideas and things that I

10:42

also wanted to implement but you know

10:44

when people look at you and they think

10:46

you're still in high school they don't

10:49

listen so much to your ideas so then I

10:51

was like oh maybe I shouldn't through

10:52

the doctorate thing but I can still do

10:54

research you know there is still a

10:55

chance to win the Nobel Prize

10:57

so I continued on that path but then I

11:02

started to realize again you know that

11:04

it wasn't really good to be this young

11:06

woman with all these ideas and who just

11:10

wanted to be creative because the

11:12

hierarchies within academia and also in

11:15

the hospital world they are so strong

11:18

and then I thought when I was 27 and I

11:22

had my degrees and I just finished my

11:24

PhD then I was like hmm you know the

11:27

ideal thing in this world is to be a

11:30

white tall man in his 50s then you are

11:34

allowed to speak I have another 10 years

11:36

done yeah exactly so you still have your

11:40

chance but then I was kind of thinking

11:42

you know that I didn't really fit into

11:44

any of those criterias and I always or I

11:49

thought of it as I had another lifetime

11:52

to go before I was 50 so then I could

11:55

kind of give myself sometimes to try

11:57

other things so then I just did a cold

12:00

turkey I just quit and people thought I

12:03

was crazy because you know I had these

12:06

degrees and it was so fancy and

12:08

everything but then I just had this very

12:11

strong feeling that I wanted to teach

12:15

people and the world about the brain

12:18

because my feeling was that if we

12:22

understand how the brain and body works

12:24

we can actually start taking control of

12:28

these processes so then I quit and my

12:32

amygdala was really triggered by that

12:36

because I just knew I wanted to start my

12:40

own company and I knew I wanted to write

12:42

a book but I mean I didn't have any

12:45

deals or any contracts or anything you

12:49

know when people were like what are you

12:51

gonna do and you are trying to explain

12:53

this feeling so I was of course very

12:57

very scared maybe we should just for the

13:00

audience explain what the amygdala is if

13:02

people don't know yeah so amygdala is

13:05

our primitive emotional brain structure

13:08

and very easily when it's triggered we

13:12

can either fight or flight but we could

13:14

also freeze right so I guess we're gonna

13:18

be talking a lot about the amygdala in

13:20

this episode since we're talking about

13:22

fear so I just figured that might be a

13:23

good thing yeah address it's a very good

13:26

point yeah so when I was there it was

13:30

kind of doing this great leap or great

13:33

jump you know and you don't know what to

13:35

jump into and I was very scared and

13:37

people said I was crazy and I wouldn't

13:40

have an income and I couldn't take a

13:42

bank loan and then I would have no place

13:45

to live and then some mean people from

13:49

academia also told me that no one will

13:51

ever listen to me I will not succeed I

13:54

will not make any money and I'm not

13:56

welcome back if I ever leave academia

14:00

that's pretty harsh yeah and that was

14:02

all entrepreneurs saying that I think

14:06

that's really funny because in I've

14:09

heard a lot of people when they change

14:11

route and become an entrepreneur people

14:14

start to bash them and to say everything

14:19

is gonna go to basically yeah and

14:23

that's very good for the brain right

14:25

that makes us very certain that we're

14:28

gonna win inspiring

14:29

yes very inspiring yes and the funny

14:32

thing is that it's a lot of times two

14:35

people that we have closest to us that

14:37

do these things out of I think caring

14:40

but also out of fear yes

14:44

projecting their own fears exactly and

14:49

yeah and that kind of makes it just much

14:52

more scarier right yeah so by this point

14:54

you finished your your academic career

14:57

yeah and then you started your own

14:59

company which was your first own company

15:01

so it's called brain Bowl apps it's

15:03

still alive

15:05

and it's my consulting company and from

15:08

there I I give lectures working as a

15:11

consultant whatever that means and I'm

15:15

writing vixen yeah doing various things

15:18

with within that company and then you've

15:20

started other companies after that right

15:22

yes

15:23

so then I work very shortly with brain

15:29

based interior design to create

15:32

optimized environments for people to

15:35

work or live in and then the company

15:39

that I work with now is spin view and I

15:43

didn't found that company but I've

15:47

invested in the company and I'm an

15:50

advisory board member and then I also

15:52

have a very fancy title which is

15:55

director of neuroscience oh man I want

15:59

to have that title so we have a company

16:01

together we can have whatever titles we

16:04

want oh so if you really want that title

16:06

you'll just have to pay me a hundred

16:09

thousand bucks I'll give it to ya yeah

16:16

that's what that I would love that maybe

16:18

you can coach me yes I for sure and I

16:21

mean you already know so much about to

16:23

make the lab so yeah I will call you if

16:26

I get sick okay great yeah I can replace

16:29

me in standing yeah have fear been a

16:33

part of your journey as well

16:36

so much so like my first year as an

16:39

entrepreneur which was 2012

16:41

I felt very lonely and because so many

16:46

people have told me that it was not a

16:48

good idea I felt this very strong force

16:51

within myself that this was something I

16:53

needed to do so in one sense it felt

16:56

like it was not even a choice it's just

16:58

this force but at the same time when so

17:01

many people in your surrounding is being

17:04

rather negative you kind of hesitate and

17:09

I remember by the end of January so in

17:13

Sweden we get our paycheck on the 25th

17:16

and I was

17:19

letting an apartment and I had this

17:23

outdoor payment on my account so once I

17:26

got my salary I directly pay the guy

17:29

that I rented a flat from but then like

17:34

the 1st of February I get this message

17:36

from this guy and he's like Hello you

17:40

didn't pay your rent and I was like oh

17:43

my god you know I've never missed a

17:45

payment ever and then I realized that

17:48

I'm not getting his salary

17:53

ya know it wasn't that bad I've always

17:55

been saving so but then I really

17:58

realized like oh my god you know you I

18:01

really need to sell and people need to

18:04

pay for my services in order for this to

18:07

work so it just became so obvious but

18:11

then I didn't know anyone who was an

18:14

entrepreneur running their own company I

18:16

basically knew nothing about this world

18:20

and I had a really nice aunt who taught

18:23

me about bookkeeping and such but every

18:26

time I had a new receipt she was like

18:28

yeah and then you have to put it on this

18:30

account and I was like oh my god and

18:32

there was always a new accountant that

18:33

you put things on and I was like yes Oh

18:38

three years yeah why did we do that

18:41

for me it was about learning and still

18:46

the bookkeeping is the core and the

18:48

heart of the company because it says

18:50

something about you know how it's going

18:53

so for me it was really about learning

18:55

what needs to be done before you let it

18:59

to someone else and I've always worked

19:04

like that also when I did science I

19:06

always wanted to learn every single

19:09

process so I also think that's the

19:12

reason why I became very effective and

19:15

good in my job because I knew every

19:17

process everything from applying to the

19:21

ethical committees to applying for money

19:23

to how to write up the scientific

19:26

reports you know how to do the

19:27

statistics around

19:31

brain imaging which is kind of heavy I

19:34

did my own programming when it came to

19:37

programming my own experiments because

19:40

usually you expose people to some sort

19:43

of stimuli and such so I kind of I've

19:46

always worked like that I learn

19:48

everything that I can and it's that

19:50

based on fear as well for sure I I think

19:56

for myself it wasn't fear-based at all

19:59

it's more about curiosity that I always

20:02

want to know things and learn things

20:05

because it's just the way my head works

20:08

that I see everything that you learn as

20:11

a piece of the puzzle and the more bits

20:13

that you add to your brain the more you

20:16

can go between them and also link them

20:20

in a new way

20:23

always the hell it works oh I'm so glad

20:25

to hear that because I was afraid of my

20:27

brain was gonna be full no I I just see

20:32

it as a scaffold of it so every piece is

20:36

something that you put into this

20:38

structure and then the more experience

20:42

you get the more you can navigate

20:43

between these different pieces and then

20:46

you also learn what you can let go what

20:48

someone else can do and also what's

20:50

important them where to focus and say I

20:52

think it's a good thing knowing lots of

20:54

things now you're writing a book about

20:56

fear and the reason for picking that

21:00

subject and feeling that that subject is

21:03

really important why did you pick that

21:07

specific subject so it's about that

21:12

people have a rather bad mental health

21:15

these days and it's also said that

21:18

depression will be the leading cause in

21:22

the world for people not being able to

21:25

work so that's kind of how to say scary

21:29

because it's something that's in our

21:31

head but from the positive side it's

21:35

actually something that we can do

21:37

something about and again I think if we

21:41

learn how we become depressed or

21:44

you know how we get all these anxieties

21:46

then we can be more proactive and also

21:49

build more resilience and in the end my

21:53

goal has always been to make people more

21:54

happy where they are and also that we

21:58

should try to get the most out of

22:00

ourselves and also out of other people

22:02

and I think that goes for society as

22:05

well that the goal for society is to

22:08

make everyone be the best flower they

22:11

can be I recently read a book about

22:13

personal security and expert on security

22:16

wrote this book and the book is called

22:18

the gift of fear oh because it's his

22:22

thesis is that you know the the

22:24

intuitive fear you feel when something

22:27

is about to happen to you is so strong

22:28

it's so developed that's been like the

22:31

key driver of survival throughout

22:33

evolution yeah and so to him in his mind

22:36

fear is really a gift that we should

22:39

take care of and you know use in our

22:42

lives to make sure we don't get hurt

22:43

dier yeah so so from an evolutionary

22:46

perspective I think that's really the

22:49

core of what fear is

22:51

but from a scientific or like a

22:53

physiological perspective um what is

22:56

fear so again I actually agree with what

23:01

you're saying that it has really helped

23:03

us to survive and what fear is it's an

23:08

emotion and the reasons why we have

23:11

emotions is because they tell us what's

23:15

important so I see emotions painting

23:20

different situations in different colors

23:22

and depending on the label it conveys

23:26

information so if we see fear as a red

23:30

color for example it's like this alarm

23:34

and it informs us that we need to do

23:37

something with this information while if

23:41

we're just sitting you know waiting for

23:44

the bus or something that's just you

23:47

know colored with a blunt or boring

23:50

color because it has no meaning it's

23:52

maybe it's a bit gray you know so it

23:55

doesn't really tell us anything it

23:57

doesn't make

23:58

react and also the reason if we look at

24:01

negative versus positive feelings the

24:06

negative or unpleasant or it's it's more

24:09

important because that also conveys what

24:14

we should avoid in order not to die so

24:18

it's much more important knowing that

24:20

like you should avoid a lion or run from

24:24

the lion rather than knowing who you can

24:27

laugh with because the information of

24:30

knowing who is fun to be with doesn't

24:32

really help you it makes your life much

24:35

more fun than nice but it doesn't really

24:38

increase your chance of survival in that

24:40

sense while no wing who can kill you

24:44

were you know stab you in the back

24:46

that's so much more important or maybe

24:48

you could say that knowing who you can

24:51

laugh with is important to find your

24:54

future mate or something even that's

24:57

important in that sense but there will

24:58

be many more laughing so my point is

25:15

from an evolutionary perspective they

25:17

have illusionary costs of missing an

25:19

opportunity is much lower while it can

25:22

still be good to do to grab hold on and

25:25

use or you know utilize an opportunity

25:28

it's much cheaper in evolutionary terms

25:30

to miss an opportunity than it is to die

25:32

yes so that's why you know we were more

25:35

afraid of snakes than we are you know

25:37

excited about ice cream

25:39

exactly and isn't that because the main

25:42

purpose is then to keep us safe and that

25:47

in this environment in this world and

25:50

the Western world where we are in most

25:52

cases safe yeah the purpose of the brain

25:55

is not to make us happy no yeah I mean

26:01

the purpose now listen carefully no

26:05

answer are you learning of life we go

26:08

yes

26:10

is about reproducing so it's about

26:12

having babies from biological

26:15

perspective so that means again that if

26:18

you can prevent yourself from dying it

26:21

means that you increase your chances of

26:23

having sex and then hopefully you will

26:27

get lots of children yeah so then you

26:31

don't need to laugh to do it but if you

26:33

do miss out on an opportunity to make a

26:36

baby there will be hopefully more

26:38

opportunities if you don't die right so

26:41

so that's that's the basis of wife fears

26:43

felt stronger than maybe you know

26:46

excitement or some other mode exactly

26:49

and it's the same thing if you look at

26:51

the pain of loosing versus the happiness

26:54

of winning which is in the same vein and

26:56

that really plays into entrepreneurship

26:59

of course because yeah you know having a

27:01

job and having that security your

27:02

paycheck will come in at 25th yeah your

27:05

rent will be paid yes and you know that

27:09

the missed opportunity of not being able

27:12

to get the upside of you know your

27:14

thriving company and the freedom that

27:16

that will provide for you and everything

27:17

is a weaker emotion than the fear of

27:21

losing everything yeah so that's what we

27:25

s that's the answer to our question then

27:27

you want that's what we need to overcome

27:29

that's why fear is so key if we want to

27:32

boost entrepreneurship in the world yeah

27:35

yeah so everyone can just call me

27:39

actually I'm gonna put that down in my

27:42

notes here no you the government needs

27:45

you what do you think are the most

27:48

common fears that entrepreneurs face I

27:52

guess it has to do with with the money

27:56

in the end because I mean money is what

27:59

we use in order to have somewhere to

28:02

live with something to eat and also in

28:05

terms of getting a partner in order to

28:07

get babies it's also the way we attract

28:09

others right so if you if you lose that

28:15

you lose your position and your social

28:18

status in the society and that is super

28:22

scary

28:23

is again the reason why hierarchies and

28:26

social status and all those things are

28:28

so important is because if you are on

28:31

the top you have all these great

28:33

opportunities to reproduce and you know

28:36

everyone will loves you will love you

28:37

and you will have yeah lots of things

28:40

coming in and that's why it's so

28:42

important and we don't want to lose that

28:44

meaning if you have a great position

28:46

already in a company and then you're

28:51

considering being becoming an

28:52

entrepreneur is usually about taking

28:55

some steps that I think what you're

28:58

saying is really interesting because

28:59

it's two parts if you go into business

29:03

and start a company it's not only the

29:06

money one is money's part of it that you

29:09

cannot then maybe provide for your

29:12

family or for your partner etc yeah and

29:14

the other thing is what if you lose and

29:17

all your friends will think you're a

29:21

failure

29:21

exactly and that's also really bad right

29:24

because then you are going even lower on

29:27

this social ladder it's important to

29:30

remember that we are social beings we

29:33

have always been living in groups so

29:36

we're not strong when we are alone we

29:39

really need other people and that's why

29:41

all those things are so important we

29:43

think that we have a like political

29:46

responsibility here to help the country

29:49

in you know the right direction

29:50

politically yeah and I think there's

29:52

some room for politicians to help us

29:55

with the first part of that fear yeah

29:57

providing for your family and all that

29:59

we have a really great safety net in

30:01

Sweden yeah for if you're employed but

30:05

not really that great if you're an

30:06

entrepreneur no not at all actually

30:09

no and I actually have something to say

30:12

because when I started my company you

30:16

get very aware of how much taxes we pay

30:19

and when I discussed this with some

30:21

person they said that in the beginning

30:25

if you don't make enough money you can

30:29

ask the government for different

30:31

contributions and stuff like that which

30:33

is part of our social security system

30:35

and then I was like

30:37

but that is so weird because if I look

30:41

at the money I made they could actually

30:43

provide me with okay salary during this

30:46

year but because I'm paying all these

30:49

taxes everything is kind of disappearing

30:51

so I really think it should be a tax

30:54

relief when you are starting your own

30:57

company and what I also think is very

31:00

weird and this really makes me upset is

31:02

that great companies they have tax

31:07

planning so they can hire all these

31:09

smart people in the world and they can

31:11

send all the money around so they

31:13

basically pay no taxes and that is

31:17

something very unfair because if you are

31:21

for example a global company and you're

31:22

operating in Sweden it means that you

31:25

are using everything in our society

31:28

let's say infrastructure so the

31:31

infrastructure that the government is

31:32

providing so people can actually go to

31:34

work and work for this company or you

31:36

know whatever is something that they use

31:39

but they do not contribute to it and

31:42

when I had been an entrepreneur for a

31:45

couple of years I saw a hearing from the

31:48

UK where they were talking with like

31:51

Facebook Google Yahoo and Starbucks and

31:54

those companies and then they said that

31:57

the amount of taxes listen to this that

32:01

Facebook had paid for a couple of years

32:04

was less than what I had paid in taxes

32:09

in here that's insane and I think it is

32:15

so important to bring some more equality

32:17

in this because we want people to start

32:21

companies and if we look in Sweden

32:23

what really contributes to our economy

32:26

are these middle sized companies so we

32:29

need people to start them and I don't

32:32

understand why we make it so hard

32:35

whereas if we look at these big

32:37

companies politicians are always

32:38

defending it like yeah but we need to

32:41

give these tax releases because

32:42

otherwise they will go elsewhere and you

32:44

know all of those things but it doesn't

32:47

really make sense that the rich are just

32:50

becoming

32:50

Richard I'm really for that people

32:53

should make money and if you worked hard

32:54

you know congratulations you know to

32:57

your wealth but at the same time if we

32:59

look at this these really rich people in

33:01

the world they don't need all those

33:04

money you can't even spend them so it's

33:06

one thing if you have this goal to have

33:07

a couple of houses and a big boat or

33:09

whatever but after that I really think

33:13

we should have them a society where we

33:15

give back isn't that also kind of a

33:18

fairness principle like if you think

33:21

that something is too much like too much

33:25

taxes are charged and you think I

33:27

shouldn't pay this because that's not

33:29

fair in terms of the value that is

33:32

provided like if you have a friend and

33:34

you're always nice to this friend and

33:36

this friend is never nice to you yeah

33:38

all of a sudden you're not gonna focus

33:41

on being nice to that friend maybe yes

33:43

and we have the special entrepreneurship

33:46

tax in Sweden too which is insane it's

33:47

actually so complicated we would have to

33:49

spend like six hours just explaining

33:51

that we can't do that but the basic

33:53

premise is that they they thought that

33:55

it's unfair that that small companies

33:57

pay out dividends instead of attack

34:00

instead of salary because it's a lower

34:02

tax so let's stop them from doing that

34:04

yeah with this 3/12 rule yeah which is

34:07

essentially a major taxation of new new

34:13

small companies exactly so it's an

34:15

entrepreneurship tax yeah and as you

34:17

always say Johan if you want less of

34:19

something tax it more so that's that's a

34:22

terrible thing and and then it's a

34:24

complicated taxes I says I won't go into

34:26

there are certain benefits certain

34:29

companies that benefit from it as well

34:31

but the the that's just to come back to

34:36

what we were talking about before so the

34:39

government can do things to help out

34:41

with this you know the risk of you not

34:44

being able to support your family and

34:46

mitigate that risk yes but they can't do

34:50

that in the same way with the social

34:52

risk you're taking

34:53

no so the risk of you being you know

34:55

feeling like a failure mostly probably

34:58

in your own head but also you know in

35:01

your social group

35:03

the government can't really help you

35:04

there so but maybe we can it's a breath

35:08

I would say it's a branding problem you

35:10

know yes and I also think that I totally

35:15

agree with a branding thing and if we

35:18

look at sports for example if you want

35:20

to become a good soccer player you need

35:23

to train and you start training from

35:26

when you are young and you just hit this

35:27

ball a billion times and then you become

35:29

good and you know maybe you make a

35:31

career out of it but when it comes to

35:33

entrepreneurship it's like at least for

35:37

me it was playing soccer for the first

35:40

time yeah so it's also a bit of a weird

35:43

expectation that I should be this

35:45

professional soccer player the first

35:47

time I try it out and I think we can

35:51

really change the mindset of people and

35:54

also in society that it's something good

35:57

you know you should try and if you fail

36:00

you know or within brackets you just try

36:04

again it's a bit like in Batman where

36:06

they say that you fall so you can rise

36:09

again yeah but we need that we need that

36:12

attitude towards entrepreneurs the

36:14

entrepreneurs in my mind are especially

36:16

now that we you know the one of the big

36:19

premises for this entire project that

36:21

we're doing with what's in the water

36:22

yeah is that we feel that the large

36:24

corporations you know if we have a

36:27

slowdown in the economy now coming yeah

36:30

and that will be a great opportunity for

36:32

all the great big companies to automate

36:33

things and introduce AI solutions to

36:36

things and when the economy comes

36:38

bounces back yeah employment won't so

36:41

entrepreneurship is gonna be super

36:43

important for us to be able to thrive as

36:45

a nation and you know have good welfare

36:48

and everything in the coming years yeah

36:50

so that if that's the basic premise then

36:54

we need to start looking at

36:56

entrepreneurs as our heroes because they

36:59

are taking these risks and if they fall

37:01

we we need to help them rise again and

37:05

try again because of course you're gonna

37:06

fail I mean yeah that's obvious you're

37:08

taking a risk yes and and also to not

37:11

tax them actually harder than we tax

37:13

like and it's somebody that not taking

37:15

the risk

37:16

and so so there are several things we

37:17

need to do here but I think it's

37:19

actually more important with a branding

37:20

part a piece of it you know to start

37:22

treating entrepreneurs as heroes yeah

37:24

I'm part of branding is I think identity

37:29

so in the broad population the identity

37:33

of having an education going to

37:37

university and then taking a job like

37:41

the the wheels I think have turned

37:45

partially and that what is what is

37:50

success for Scandinavia and what is

37:53

success for the world I think the US has

37:55

been very good at this in in terms of

37:59

saying that our identity is that

38:02

everything is possible in America

38:04

everything is possible and in Sweden and

38:08

in Scandinavia it's more of okay don't

38:13

the in Australia they call it the tall

38:15

poppy syndrome

38:16

oh the tall poppy syndrome yeah don't

38:19

think you're too much because then

38:21

they're gonna cut you down yeah they

38:23

should so that's in my chihuahua puppy

38:27

syndrome yeah she actually stands on her

38:29

hands like or her sorry hurt from poles

38:33

when she's peeing in order to raise her

38:36

bum to pee hi I think other people doing

38:47

that in the society as well don't we

38:49

there's two ways of getting significance

38:52

one thing is building something but

38:54

another thing is actually tearing it

38:56

down there are two ways of having a

38:58

bigger house than your neighbor one is

39:01

building a bigger house and one is

39:03

tearing his down yeah which is basically

39:06

what you're saying right yeah yeah and I

39:09

agree with you because I also think the

39:11

reason why you become an entrepreneur is

39:14

because you want this freedom you want

39:16

the creativity and then of course you

39:19

want to live a comfortable life in the

39:23

end but that's more like a receipt of

39:26

your hard work in kind of

39:29

putting the ideas that you have to to

39:31

life and make them fly yeah I think that

39:34

we had a really great conversation here

39:36

with another entrepreneur Konrad

39:38

Bergstrom who said that

39:41

his in his view the politicians were

39:44

miss reading the drivers behind

39:47

entrepreneurship entrepreneurs in that

39:50

they think that we're trying to get

39:53

these tax breaks in order to escape the

39:55

taxation of salary or something along

39:57

those lines whereas the driver is really

40:00

something completely different and I

40:01

really think it's about the idea and in

40:04

order to make this thing happen you need

40:08

to be able to pay your rent but also

40:11

when you have money you can reinvest

40:13

that and you can really put the second

40:15

ID and the third idea to life and that's

40:17

really what the money is about more than

40:20

just disappearing and again I think it

40:23

comes down to the freedom that you want

40:25

to decide what you can do with this type

40:28

of currency yeah there's a cynicism

40:31

there I think and on the part of the

40:33

politicians you know assuming that the

40:36

only thing that the entrepreneur really

40:37

wants in the end this is buying a really

40:39

expensive you know car yes I think you

40:43

know yeah which is completely wrong I

40:45

don't know I know a lot of entrepreneurs

40:47

that are real entrepreneurs really good

40:48

entrepreneurs they all reinvest in the

40:51

next project yes without you know

40:53

exception and I think that I had this

40:56

amazing conversation with a very very

40:58

very successful friend and he he said

41:01

what no-one understands is that it's

41:04

never never never worth making a hundred

41:07

million dollars doing something that you

41:10

don't like over a long period of time

41:12

and the only way to find that out is to

41:15

work with something that you don't like

41:16

over a very long period of time and no

41:19

one's everyone says I'm wrong and

41:20

everyone that's done that says it's true

41:24

and I and he did that right yeah and he

41:27

did that yeah super successful

41:29

financially but then didn't do it in a

41:32

way that he was emotionally successful

41:35

and I also think that people who are not

41:39

entrepreneurs if they really really knew

41:42

all the struggles or old obstacles every

41:47

time you kind of hit the wall

41:49

all these worried nights and I mean all

41:52

the bad things or the unpleasant

41:55

feelings that you really experience and

42:00

encounter during your journey if they

42:03

knew the intensity of those I think they

42:08

would kind of realize that you have a

42:12

greater golden money and especially if

42:15

you if you look at Sweden where we have

42:18

already a good life and where we have a

42:21

good education and good diplomas and

42:23

everything we could actually all of us

42:25

here we could get the good job and all

42:27

the security and still get the right

42:29

unemployable though yeah okay I've tried

42:34

once didn't work out at all we could get

42:40

jobs with a rather nice salary but still

42:43

we choose to make it less money during a

42:47

long period of time because we want this

42:50

freedom and I also think that everyone

42:56

at one point in their life should

42:58

actually try this type of life because

43:02

you become so humble when it comes to

43:07

realizing what it actually takes to

43:09

build something that is greater than

43:11

yourself to have employees to be part of

43:14

something that is bigger that requires

43:17

so so much effort and yeah you've

43:21

probably become a much better employee

43:22

after that - yes I know I've been in

43:25

hundreds of times where I've thought I'd

43:28

done the best I could and the best I

43:30

could

43:31

wasn't remotely good enough and I had to

43:34

do way better than the best I could and

43:37

then my identity completely shifted that

43:41

that's what evolving is about right you

43:43

you you know every time you go beyond

43:45

like you do something beyond your

43:47

previous level of skill or expertise you

43:52

do something beyond the best you

43:55

you could yeah and I think actually to

43:57

come back to your question where you

43:59

asked me if I was happy where I am the

44:04

answer is yes because of this but just

44:07

because I'm happy doesn't mean it wasn't

44:10

hard to get there

44:12

yeah and this journey will probably

44:15

continue for the rest of my life there

44:16

will be ups and downs and I also think

44:20

with this type of life that life becomes

44:24

more intensive the highs are so much

44:27

higher but the lows are also so much

44:32

lower we've met a lot of people through

44:36

this project and one recurring theme

44:38

that we keep hearing is that you need to

44:41

love problems or challenges because

44:45

you'll wake up every morning next to

44:47

them love that part of life and I

44:52

actually have to say as well that with

44:55

the difficult that difficulties that has

44:58

occurred during this journey you also

45:02

realize what's a problem and what is not

45:05

because I always compare every problem

45:09

to the worst thing I've ever experienced

45:12

and when I do that I'm like oh but this

45:14

is fine so in that sense you've also

45:18

become better to solve them but also to

45:22

put this worry aside if we come back to

45:26

the fear and anxiety topic that you are

45:29

exposed to this so many times that you

45:34

habituate yeah so then things doesn't

45:38

feel as bad as they did in the beginning

45:40

and what do you think is the antidote to

45:45

fear what to do if you're either wanted

45:48

wanting to start your business or

45:50

wanting to scale your business or

45:53

wanting to employ people strongly going

45:57

outside of your comfort zone what's

45:59

what's the antidote I think one part of

46:02

that answer is experience and both

46:08

your own experience but then also

46:10

experience from others and that's

46:14

actually what I love right now that I'm

46:17

surrounded with such amazing people

46:20

there's so many people that I work with

46:22

that I just want to hug because I think

46:24

they are amazing and I'm like wow and

46:28

this is really really what I love when

46:32

you can learn so much from people in

46:35

your team I think that's really the best

46:38

experience ever can I dig a little bit

46:41

into something here that may be

46:43

complicated or not we'll see but I want

46:46

to come back to your strawberry mmm

46:49

in my meditation practice I do a lot of

46:52

meditation yeah you know you talked

46:54

about how to visualize that strawberry

46:55

and that's strawberry your mental image

46:58

of that strawberry is created in an area

47:01

of the brain which is the same as your

47:03

in your visual cortex right is that is

47:06

that is that right or just no no it's

47:09

it's great okay you will get one out of

47:12

one here I will because I'm deep and

47:15

you're the master you're Yoda and I'm

47:16

Luke Skywalker so but yes so it's

47:20

created there and and you were

47:22

fascinated but by that when you were a

47:24

kid yes and so am i because I'm when you

47:28

start realizing like okay so that's how

47:30

that works

47:31

you know and when I meditate I sometimes

47:32

do that visualization practice to kind

47:35

of try to understand and try to get an

47:37

image of who's the observer of what I am

47:40

observing right now I'm trying to see

47:43

that and that's really difficult to do

47:44

but it's an fantastic practice - yeah to

47:47

work with your brain but in when we talk

47:50

about fear now I realize this is kind of

47:52

a complicated way into this question

47:54

maybe but to me one of the antidotes to

47:58

fear in my mind is trying to understand

48:01

where it comes from how it works how the

48:03

mind produces that emotion yeah dig into

48:06

that and also in stoicism that's also

48:08

something that in that philosophy that's

48:10

something that they also practiced you

48:11

can really dive into your fears and

48:14

understand and feel them very clearly

48:17

because because the emotion is really

48:19

the the pure emotion is very short-lived

48:22

but but it you keep reinforcing that

48:25

emotion by telling the same story over

48:27

and over again to kind of keep inducing

48:30

that emotion so but when once you

48:33

understand that the emotion itself is

48:34

really short-lived and you try to study

48:36

that that's when it kind of in a way it

48:38

evaporates I know now we're kind of in

48:41

the in-between like you know meditation

48:43

philosophy but else but also physiology

48:46

I guess because that's yeah it's a

48:48

cognitive process right right and and

48:50

now I'm talking about this like from my

48:53

own personal experience in my own

48:54

meditation but I would like to have you

48:56

or like real scientific perspective of

48:59

that what's going on when this happens

49:01

in my brain yeah so when we meditate

49:05

it's both about attentional control so

49:09

an important part of the brain is the

49:13

Perito cortex and and you can see that

49:18

part as a spotlight so if you just

49:22

imagine the spotlight you will direct

49:25

for example in meditation at the

49:27

spotlights to which your fear or your

49:30

breathing or whatever and once you do

49:33

this observing practice you stay in the

49:38

emotion and what happens when you stay

49:41

in an emotion is that it passes as you

49:43

say and usually an emotion is just a few

49:47

minutes depending on the context then

49:50

you have the frontal lobe that helps you

49:53

with emotional regulation so in that

49:55

sense you can also down regulate the

50:00

signal for example from amygdala then

50:04

you also simulate how would I feel in my

50:09

body if I was afraid and that happens in

50:13

a part is called anterior insula so I

50:16

mean there are lots of brain area so we

50:19

want to go through them all but what you

50:22

do is that you really train this type of

50:25

system with these types of exercises and

50:30

again this is kind of the core of

50:34

emotional regulation

50:36

we're also attentional regulations is

50:39

important and it's like building muscles

50:42

so if you go to the gym and you exercise

50:44

your biceps you will get stronger in

50:47

your arms and the brain works in the

50:50

same manner that when you do this type

50:52

of exercises you will build brain

50:55

muscles and in that sense you will

50:58

become stronger and it won't be as scary

51:00

and then you will learn to apply this

51:05

type of thinking when you encounter a

51:08

real situation and I think that is also

51:12

the core of meditation that it's not

51:14

just about meditating here and now for

51:17

10 minutes and then you can check your

51:19

box but it's really about applying the

51:22

same method when you are scared in real

51:25

life and when you do that you will be

51:28

better at handling it so I mean so to

51:30

give our listeners like some real tools

51:32

because we don't just want to discuss in

51:35

general terms fear fear is a part of

51:37

entrepreneurship and then leave it now

51:39

because we can I really want to help

51:41

people yes and maybe something that

51:42

really could help people yeah is to try

51:45

to as you because we have you Johan and

51:47

and me we have kind of slightly

51:50

different approaches I think to your

51:52

life and you are one of the most

51:53

knowledgeable people I know when it

51:55

comes to personal development and you've

51:57

been to you've met like every you know a

52:00

great self-help teacher in the world and

52:03

you know you really know a lot about how

52:05

building models from building ways of of

52:07

producing results so you can't kind of

52:10

come from from from that is this no do i

52:13

hypnotize you now or later

52:15

that's the sone episode but you're also

52:19

hypnotist trained but I would love that

52:23

we will maybe we'll do that in a minute

52:25

but you are you have a great amount of

52:29

knowledge and experience from that and

52:30

you always keep telling me feel the fear

52:33

and do it anyway

52:34

so that's one part of like one approach

52:37

which is kind of a method you know I

52:40

look at and it's exposure

52:41

yeah yeah so then the other way the

52:43

other really piece of advice that we

52:46

could give is the stoic advice dive into

52:49

your

52:49

not only just feel the fear and do it

52:51

anyway but feel the fear and focus on it

52:54

try to understand it and really feel it

52:56

and experience it as clearly and vividly

52:59

as you can do it kind of write it out

53:02

like you can stay in this feeling and

53:04

you will not die you know you can just

53:06

stay I would say there are different

53:09

methods so one thing is just staying in

53:11

the thought and feeling like ok I feel

53:15

really scared but it's fine you know you

53:17

don't even need to judge it you can just

53:19

stay there and then the emotion will go

53:21

down another way is what's called

53:24

labeling just telling yourself I'm very

53:28

very scared right now

53:29

and that also takes the feeling down

53:32

like reduces the volume then you can

53:35

take this perspective like you do a bit

53:38

in meditation when you serve and that

53:42

method is about not judging it just

53:45

seeing it there and then you can just

53:48

let it float away so there are different

53:52

tricks in how you put your mind into

53:56

these different things and I also think

53:59

what you're saying you want is very

54:00

important because usually people like to

54:04

talk about positive thinking but I think

54:08

that's the bit you know math because

54:11

let's say that you can think in a

54:14

positive way like oh I'm gonna start a

54:16

business but if you never do it you know

54:19

it's not going to happen right so I

54:20

think positive actions are so much more

54:24

important and I think that's really what

54:26

your advice is about that you them

54:30

behave in the way you want to behave

54:33

like you just start the business even

54:35

though you're scared or you just call

54:37

this person or you just go to this

54:40

meeting or whatever it is so it's really

54:43

about action and this is always a

54:46

question if you talk about therapy like

54:48

should you start with the thoughts or

54:50

with the actions depending on the

54:53

situation you can choose either or but

54:56

when you also start with actions the

54:59

thoughts will come afterwards it's a

55:02

little bit like conditioned

55:03

yourself to jump into cold water yeah I

55:05

do that here every day in the summer and

55:07

in the beginning it's hard but after

55:09

waters just you just do it and I think

55:11

that's what I've seen with you Johan

55:13

because you've been like the of all the

55:15

people I know I haven't seen anyone

55:17

who's so much into like this is so scary

55:20

I'm doing it now and you're so

55:22

conditioned to that so that's for you

55:23

that's like you know walking away to

55:25

play basketball or something yeah I

55:27

think it's three part and really its

55:29

basis on the outcome and the situation

55:33

if it's just a conversation and there

55:35

are no real stakes I think it's really

55:38

good to just observe your emotion or let

55:43

it go sometimes if there are really big

55:47

stakes

55:48

I think the emotion is not the thing to

55:53

focus on the accountability of going

55:57

through is much more important I've

56:00

always been afraid of public speaking

56:02

that's been like a big thing for me and

56:06

because of that I've also said I need to

56:09

conquer this and own this because if I

56:11

can conquer a big fear I know that I'm I

56:14

can conquer anything the way I've done

56:17

that is then to put myself in situations

56:20

where I need to get in front of a big

56:24

stage and have had accountability so

56:27

that it's been impossible for me to just

56:30

split and the final thing is

56:32

conditioning and I think that what

56:34

that's what you mentioned conditioning

56:37

identity so my first value is that I'm a

56:40

I'm a courageous person and I work with

56:44

that every day over and over and over

56:47

again and then the feeling of doing

56:50

something that scary goes away because I

56:54

know that I'm a courageous person it's a

56:57

really conditioning you're training

56:58

yourself brainwashing brain that's

57:01

another way of looking at it but but is

57:03

that something you can you train

57:05

yourself to be more resilient to fear

57:07

almost like being you know getting

57:09

addicted to it like you didn't the more

57:11

alcohol you drink the more you can drink

57:13

you know and and it's fear does that

57:16

work on the same

57:16

yeah for sure and I mean it's called

57:20

one part of it is habituation so it

57:24

means again if we go back to the

57:27

principle let's say that you see a scary

57:30

picture for the first time and that

57:33

triggers your amygdala you get super

57:34

scared you're like oh this is so

57:36

uncomfortable but then you see this

57:38

picture every every day then it kind of

57:42

means that maybe it's not conveying that

57:44

important information that you first

57:47

thought it would because you're seeing

57:49

it every day like something that's very

57:51

repetitive occurring all the time kind

57:54

of loses meaning after a while so that's

57:57

why we habituate because then you

57:59

shouldn't focus on that and you should

58:00

focus on something else that popping and

58:03

it becomes like that when we expose

58:06

ourselves

58:06

so I usually compare this with with

58:10

jumping into the water you know and so

58:13

in Sweden we have these different

58:15

platforms that you can jump from so one

58:17

is one meter one is 3 1 is 5 and if

58:20

you're super scared of jumping into the

58:22

water maybe you will just start at the

58:24

bottom but once you've done that a

58:26

hundred times again you have bit to

58:28

eight because you've just done it and

58:29

then you're prepared to go to the next

58:31

level and the next level and that is how

58:34

you train yourself through exposure and

58:38

also as you say you want that once you

58:40

have done this lots of times you also

58:43

gain the confidence and thinking like oh

58:46

I did that but then I can do this then

58:49

you kind of put higher and higher goals

58:51

then I would also say it's about the

58:53

reward system because as you habituate

58:56

the thing isn't special enough anymore

58:59

and then you kind of want greater

59:01

rewards and then you will also start

59:03

challenging yourself if we think about

59:06

buying a lottery ticket let's say that

59:09

it's like one in a million to actually

59:12

win something but don't Swedish TV as an

59:16

example we have this these like five

59:19

minutes in this morning show where the

59:23

winner gets to come to the studio and

59:25

they have a chance to win like lots of

59:28

money so this is only

59:30

thing that we see like wow you know

59:32

they're winning but if you had to watch

59:36

all the losers before that single person

59:40

came on you would actually have to watch

59:43

TV for years without even having you

59:46

know a food break or a pee break before

59:49

that single person would come and say

59:51

like hello I won you know so I also

59:54

think that if we present failures we

60:00

removed a drama from it because then

60:03

people are like oh but this great

60:04

entrepreneur he or she actually also has

60:07

some difficulties but then they try it

60:09

again and again and again so once you're

60:11

in your own failure you can first of all

60:16

embrace it and you can also expect it

60:18

because then you have kind of seen all

60:21

these people who did all their mistakes

60:23

yeah I think that's super interesting

60:26

because a lot of people they see success

60:30

and entrepreneurship as an instant as an

60:34

event yeah so Katharina gospic she was

60:38

an overnight success are you an

60:42

overnight success if you don't count the

60:46

eight years of medical school yeah so

60:49

the interesting thing is that life is a

60:51

process right yes and all these failures

60:55

lead up to with consistency some type of

61:00

success there is there's a saying

61:02

connecting to this which i think is

61:04

extremely good strong timber does not

61:08

grow with ease the stronger the wind the

61:11

stronger the trees beautiful let's get a

61:17

tattoo that's so beautiful

61:20

and I think that's that's also what

61:22

you're saying is that if you're if you

61:25

put yourself into difficult situations

61:28

the more you put yourself into those

61:30

situations the stronger you will become

61:33

and more able to handle those types of

61:36

situations yeah and I think that that is

61:39

also part of why entrepreneurship is so

61:42

amazing

61:44

there is nothing more beautiful than

61:48

having a really strong competence and

61:53

knowledge and at the same time a major

61:56

challenge like feeling that you're

61:58

really good at something and at the same

62:01

time being super challenge and I think

62:04

entrepreneurship builds that through the

62:07

need because all of these problems that

62:09

you're mentioning Walter and Katarina as

62:12

well that when we are put into difficult

62:16

situations we need to grow yeah but you

62:19

are one of the Sweden's most booked

62:21

I think speakers yeah I I give lots of

62:25

speeches we're not only in Sweden

62:27

probably and no not only in Sweden yeah

62:29

yeah do you have a or did you use to

62:31

have and do you have now stage fright I

62:36

don't have stage fright and I always

62:39

love talking in front of people but with

62:43

that said it doesn't mean that I

62:46

sometimes get a bit nervous or you know

62:50

you get this tickling in your stomach

62:52

like butterflies because I've also been

62:55

in situations and I can tell all the

62:58

people which people I've given lectures

62:59

because I'm not allowed to but sometimes

63:02

my life has felt so surreal like oh my

63:06

god am i standing in front of all these

63:08

people you know and yeah so then you

63:12

feel this but I get back to my core that

63:15

I love teaching and I want to teach

63:17

these people as much as I want to teach

63:20

anyone else and then I'm just focused on

63:23

the task and I think when you're focused

63:26

on the audience and giving and not your

63:29

own performance in yourself fear goes

63:32

away right yeah for sure this has

63:34

something to do in some way with

63:37

confidence mmm it's confidence a lack of

63:40

fear or what is confidence I would say

63:43

it's more about believing in your

63:48

ability that you can do something and I

63:53

think this is a really interesting

63:55

question

63:57

also from what you said the one that you

64:00

tell yourself every day that you're a

64:02

courageous person because the culture

64:05

that I was raised in was a bit like yeah

64:08

I'm the best you know if I can't do it

64:11

who can do it you know so in that sense

64:15

I never really had this bad confidence

64:18

and I've actually never told myself that

64:21

I'm oh I'm so bad and you know all these

64:24

negative thoughts and when I started

64:27

school I realized that people are

64:30

thinking these thoughts and also in

64:33

university when I was doing my PhD I had

64:36

some conversations with some really

64:38

really smart people who had all these

64:41

negative thoughts and the way I looked

64:45

at it was that why would I ever ever be

64:50

able to achieve something if I had all

64:53

these negative thoughts you know then I

64:55

wouldn't be able to do anything so I

64:58

think it's also good from a cultural

65:02

perspective to raise people children

65:06

like people in our organizations that

65:08

you know yeah we're the best you know we

65:11

can do this because I also think that

65:14

that could remove fear and obstacles

65:16

again coming back to your question how

65:19

we raise more entrepreneurs because

65:23

instead of being scared they would just

65:24

think like ah

65:25

you know if I can't do it who can do it

65:28

then you know our kids in school a lot

65:31

of their friends parents say if they are

65:36

nagging or how do you call it when you a

65:38

short buy in English yeah so if you nag

65:42

you don't get what you want

65:44

so in entrepreneurship and in life if

65:47

you just ask once politely and never

65:50

again you never get what you want the

65:52

money so we we changed all this me my

65:56

partner so that our kids they get what

65:59

they want when they're happy and they're

66:03

nagging and they're brave and the

66:06

because we say no a hundred times but if

66:09

they keep

66:10

going and when they're happy at the same

66:14

time they often get what they want

66:16

because we know that it's going to be

66:18

needed in the in the future and

66:21

sometimes it's really funny because then

66:23

they forget this so they start crying

66:26

and say I want this and they're really

66:28

pissed off and say okay when do you get

66:32

what you want when you're at because

66:41

we're qalaat of people are conditioned

66:43

throughout their it's a gift for you

66:46

that your culture gave you that

66:50

confidence and identity from the

66:53

beginning and I think a lot of Western

66:55

culture instead do the opposite we make

66:58

sure that people end up with being

67:01

afraid of doing something that's out of

67:04

the box and doing something following

67:07

their own ideas I love the way and I

67:13

also think that you're pointing out

67:16

something that is so important because I

67:18

also had that thought in my life so when

67:22

I started doing research I didn't know

67:26

anyone and I'm also from a non academic

67:29

family I'm from the suburbs and

67:30

everything so yeah I was kind of

67:33

clueless in that context but I knew what

67:35

I wanted and I wanted to do brain

67:41

research and I was at another lab and

67:44

then people were like yeah but you could

67:45

just stay here you know it's the

67:46

short-term reward and I was like no I'm

67:48

gonna go to that lab and it was really

67:51

prestigious laughs and then I sent an

67:54

email to the professor didn't answer but

67:57

I was nying about this that I really

68:01

send him I don't know a hundred emails

68:04

in three months without being issued

68:08

this is what I wanted and finally he was

68:11

like oh yeah I will try to find you some

68:13

sort of supervisor and then I he found

68:17

someone and everything yeah and my plan

68:19

is to do this and that whenever I was

68:21

looking at a psycho okay you know

68:24

I was kind of hopeless they couldn't

68:26

avoid me and an O is a shy yes exactly

68:32

and that is actually really followed me

68:35

because I always think in likelihoods if

68:38

there is a chance that is like 1 out of

68:40

10 to get a jet yes you just need to ask

68:43

10 times right once I I traveled to

68:47

Hawaii and we were gonna go in economy

68:51

class and I wanted to go in business and

68:55

Tina she also wanted of course going to

68:58

go in business and there were no we had

69:02

points so we could upgrade to business

69:04

so we asked or I asked first one time at

69:08

the check-in desk

69:09

and they said no there are no seats I

69:12

asked after them

69:15

we came to through check-in I asked at

69:18

gate we then the 8th time I asked one

69:25

plane was delayed so we got the to only

69:29

business class seats because two people

69:32

missed the plane and I and I think that

69:35

that was really it transformed my life

69:40

because usually I ask one or two or

69:43

three times but after that I understood

69:45

that if I really really want something I

69:50

cannot take a no for an answer

69:53

now we will make people really becoming

69:55

pain yeah but I think that I think that

70:01

that's why it's good for me to have you

70:04

as a partner you want because I I am not

70:06

as strong in that area and I think it's

70:09

also a key component of say becoming a

70:12

successful entrepreneur it's about

70:14

persistence yeah absolutely 100% so I

70:18

have a lot to learn there so I have to

70:20

Yodas here in the room now but you

70:24

always say that entrepreneurs are rebels

70:27

and I think this is part of being a

70:30

rebel yes yeah for sure I mean that's

70:34

just by definition if you break loose

70:36

and is

70:37

same thing with every breakthrough every

70:39

breakthrough has seen us insanity before

70:42

it's a breakthrough

70:43

how breakthroughs work otherwise it

70:46

wouldn't be a breakthrough it would be

70:47

obvious yeah so and then for

70:50

entrepreneurs it's the same thing we

70:51

kind of move outside the box and

70:53

everybody says that's a stupid idea and

70:55

you know oftentimes it is men I mean

70:58

it's the same thing for your journey

71:00

right you didn't become the traditional

71:02

engineer no no and you know I got so

71:06

much not most of the Nazis I wouldn't

71:10

say criticism but most of the people are

71:12

questioning me that was out of love yeah

71:15

yeah just get a job and you know yeah

71:18

get employed and that's how how it is

71:22

and that's why you there's some kind of

71:24

rebel aspect to every entrepreneur

71:26

because you kind of want their freedom

71:27

they want to go the other way they won't

71:29

want to sag when everybody sings and you

71:31

know that's just how we how we are and

71:35

and that's also I think it's important

71:38

for us with this this initiative that we

71:40

have that we kind of embraced that yeah

71:43

if we don't become an institution and we

71:45

need to be able to say things that not

71:47

everybody wants to yeah yeah and I also

71:49

think coming back to the fear which is

71:52

an emotion we should also listen to our

71:56

emotions because sometimes in our very

71:59

structured society we remove different

72:04

feelings like oh no even if you have a

72:07

feeling as I know I shouldn't do this

72:08

because I should get the job I should

72:10

get this money blah blah by I should do

72:12

everything that everyone else expects of

72:14

me and when we remove our feelings or

72:17

not listening to them I also think it

72:21

becomes harder to take these types of

72:23

steps and also being brave because we

72:27

have rationalized it away while I think

72:31

for all of us we have had this strong

72:34

feeling where we have felt that this is

72:38

not even a choice this is just something

72:40

we need to do and if everyone listened a

72:45

bit more to their inner voice I also

72:47

think that that could remove this panic

72:50

or fear

72:51

that people feel because it becomes so

72:54

crystal clear what it is that you should

72:56

do and it's a it's a known entity if you

72:59

just push it away you kind of feel that

73:02

you don't want to do it but you really

73:03

don't really know why because it's in

73:05

the dark but when you listen to your

73:07

fears you kind of see them clearly you

73:09

know why you don't want to do something

73:12

but just when you know why then you can

73:15

handle it in a different way so that's

73:17

why keeping your fears like in in the

73:19

open yes it's a powerful thing exactly

73:22

and I also think when it comes to any

73:24

emotion it's very important to

73:27

understand what gives rise to them and

73:30

also what is the consequence because if

73:34

you have this strong feeling like yeah I

73:36

want to start my company but then you

73:39

start feeling scared and you list all

73:41

these things like oh maybe I won't make

73:43

any money how will I be able to pay my

73:45

rent all those things but if you look at

73:48

it it's like what is the consequence if

73:51

I will not proceed with this feeling

73:54

that I have and the consequence might be

73:57

then that you will have this boring work

73:59

and that you will not get so happy in

74:01

your life and you will regret your

74:04

choice in 10 years and yeah then it will

74:07

be maybe it's too late to know another

74:10

dress and you you get into this night-

74:12

spiral instead of just seeing it it's

74:15

like okay I am scared of things that

74:19

everyone is afraid of but if they could

74:21

do it I could do it and also say to the

74:24

consequence what's the worst thing that

74:26

can happen because again in Sweden we

74:29

live in a very good country so you will

74:32

probably not die and then it can be

74:34

worth the risk

74:35

have you ever broken up to someone with

74:38

someone yes yes so when you did that do

74:42

you think about all the reasons why you

74:44

love that person and that that person

74:47

was the person to spend the rest of your

74:50

life with no no because you did the

74:53

opposite right you stacked all the

74:56

that that person had ever done and then

75:00

you said I've had it right

75:05

and I think that's also what your what

75:06

you're saying when you're describing

75:08

this that sometimes it can be really

75:10

good to stack shitty emotions on top of

75:13

each other to say I've had it I'm done

75:16

I'm gonna change I'm gonna quit my job

75:18

I'm gonna break up I'm gonna do whatever

75:21

it takes to to pursue that dream that I

75:24

have yeah and that's a really good point

75:26

because again this shows that fear can

75:30

also be power that we can use in order

75:33

to do change but again the other side is

75:37

that we go to office it way but that's

75:39

important to understand that there are

75:41

two sides of the coin so I want to look

75:45

at a very specific type of fear yeah

75:48

creativity mmm I worked a lot with

75:52

creative people and I can see that a lot

75:56

of the most successful creative people

75:57

we have a way of dealing with the fear

76:00

of being bad or the feeling fear or the

76:04

fear of people will think that this idea

76:08

I had was not a good one

76:10

and that that fear component of

76:13

creativity is I think very much

76:16

underestimated yeah I think a lot of

76:19

people are much more creative than we

76:20

think but they had their fear component

76:22

is so strong that they censor every idea

76:24

and they think you're just not good

76:26

enough yeah how do you think about

76:28

creative to creativity because I know

76:30

you've been talking about creativity a

76:31

lot before but have you talked about

76:33

that in the context of fear before and I

76:36

mean yes a bit so if you actually look

76:39

what boosts people creativity when it

76:42

comes to listing as many ideas as

76:45

possible

76:46

you actually come up with most things

76:49

when you're sitting on your own and you

76:52

just write down everything that pops up

76:54

and the reason for this is as you say

76:57

that we are social beings so we are so

77:00

afraid of getting judged by other people

77:04

then we start thinking exactly as you

77:06

say like oh no maybe human will not like

77:09

that or you know they will think I'm

77:10

stupid or I can't see it and at the same

77:13

time when we are in a group you might be

77:16

seeing something and then I'm like oh I

77:18

need to say

77:18

this and then you wanna start sucking it

77:20

although I forgot so also being in this

77:24

social context can be a bit inhibiting

77:27

so a very good thing if we want to be

77:30

more creative is actually to start on

77:32

our own and then present everything that

77:34

we have written down or sandpaper around

77:36

or something in order to remove these

77:39

obstacles yeah because then you see that

77:41

when you do that you know a really bad

77:43

idea that you communicate to somebody

77:45

else

77:46

yeah can lead to them having another

77:47

really bad idea yeah that they

77:49

communicate somebody else and that's um

77:50

that's somebody gets inspiration from

77:52

that idea and Bruce is a fantastic

77:55

breakthrough idea yeah so when that

77:57

happens all the time and that's why

77:58

creativity in groups can be very

78:01

fruitful and and good yeah but then you

78:06

need to be get rid of that fear in

78:08

within the group at least you know and

78:11

that's to me is so interesting I don't

78:15

have the answers for how to do that and

78:17

I'm not sure anybody else do maybe but I

78:19

think that just approaching creativity

78:21

from a fear perspective is something

78:23

that we came up with when discussing

78:25

this episode and we I haven't really

78:26

thought about it before and I think it's

78:28

really interesting because they can

78:29

address the actual inhibitor that stops

78:33

us from being a better creative team or

78:35

a better creative person yeah and it can

78:37

also again be the other way around that

78:39

if you are scared you can also sharpen

78:43

up the base and really try to come up

78:45

with this amazing idea as well right if

78:48

there was an elephant in the house we

78:49

would probably become very creative

78:51

right now long time ago I learned that I

78:57

had a question that I asked myself over

79:00

and over and over again and that that

79:02

question changed over the years so the

79:05

the first question I had a very long

79:07

time ago what was was what's wrong with

79:09

me that was a very bad question to ask

79:12

and I asked it I don't know maybe 50

79:15

times per day every day for maybe ten

79:17

years and then it gradually be shifted

79:22

so the question that I asked for the

79:24

next ten years was what do you think

79:27

about me what do you think about me and

79:30

I think that's also

79:32

that created a lot of fear based Drive

79:34

and created a lot of success but at the

79:39

same time and I was not feeling good

79:42

because everything was fear-based and I

79:46

think that people in creative people and

79:50

everyone asked themselves questions over

79:54

and over and over again and the quality

79:56

of the questions will direct the

79:58

emotional state and if you have the

80:02

wrong question you will always get the

80:05

wrong answer and I think that that's

80:08

really changing the types of questions

80:12

will change the entire quality of

80:17

people's lives and also things like

80:19

creativity so what is your question

80:22

today what's the gift in this moment

80:25

you're so poetic to machine oh yeah I

80:32

think that everything happens for a

80:36

reason and a good reason and there is

80:39

always a gift so where is the gift and

80:42

in difficult situations and where I

80:46

might feel not the way I want to feel

80:50

when I use the power of that question

80:53

everything shifts I agree very much with

80:56

that we talked about our brand like the

80:58

Watts in the water brand

80:59

I think optimism and creativity are huge

81:02

parts of this brand and I mean if you

81:04

look at the what we talked about before

81:05

what where the country is going and the

81:09

you know that the the pessimistic view

81:11

is that work jobs will go away hmm and

81:15

everyone will die that's the pessimistic

81:17

view yeah and the optimistic view is

81:19

will free up a lot of resources for a

81:21

new creative project which will drive

81:25

and help us solve you know environmental

81:27

problems or social problems or you know

81:29

whatever you know we want to do welfare

81:31

problems and I think that that

81:34

difference of having a pessimistic

81:36

versus an optimistic mindset it's just a

81:38

game changer we need to get that into

81:40

politics we need to get that into the

81:42

school so we need to get that into the

81:44

world because you know that's

81:45

the only way forward yeah I I think it's

81:47

actually time for a Balkan story okay

81:50

yes love it yes I love the Boeing yes so

81:54

my love always tells me this story and

81:57

it's about a father who buys a horse to

82:01

his son and the son takes the horse out

82:05

and he's riding and going all crazy and

82:08

people are alike hmm you know that horse

82:11

was so expensive and one day the son

82:14

falls off the horse and everyone is

82:17

shaking their head and they're like ah

82:19

we knew that was a really bad idea

82:22

buying that horse you know and yeah the

82:26

guy is kind of broken but then the

82:30

father says well we'll see and then the

82:36

war starts and the Sun is actually

82:41

spared so he doesn't need to go to work

82:44

and then the father says yeah it was a

82:47

good thing with this horse and I think

82:51

this is important to remember that when

82:55

something bad happens to you there is

82:58

always a reason and I feel like my

83:00

question is very similar to to your ice

83:04

figures sometimes you can really have

83:06

this these thoughts like oh my god why

83:08

is this happening and again if you like

83:12

to achieve and you feel like you're

83:16

doing everything in your power to do

83:18

everything how to say rides and goods

83:20

and be your best and still these things

83:23

happens you're like oh why but then

83:26

there is always a twist to it and I also

83:30

think that my life lesson has been that

83:33

you need to trust life yeah that's uh

83:38

we're done yeah that's a great way to

83:41

end this show I have one more question

83:46

okay if you would too for our listeners

83:50

summarize some specific advice how they

83:54

can because we don't get a user manual

83:58

for our brain

83:59

right now and used you've like created

84:01

this user manual in some sense we spend

84:06

a lot of lot of time and effort creating

84:09

these manuals about the brain yes

84:11

what advised that simple and actionable

84:14

would you give the people that are

84:17

listening to this the first is to learn

84:22

more about your brain so if you feel

84:24

like you don't know anything about it

84:26

just read a bit and maybe buy your books

84:29

exactly buy my books and and this is

84:32

actually a wish that if there is an

84:36

English publishing house listening they

84:39

are very welcome to call me you have to

84:45

learn because when you learn something

84:46

you can take control of it a bit as we

84:50

have been talking about second I believe

84:52

in these positive actions so just do it

84:57

3 think positive and that's a bit of a

85:02

cliche but studies have shown that when

85:05

you start thinking all these negative

85:07

thoughts about yourself or you didn't

85:09

succeed on the first trial or anything

85:12

that actually increases your chances of

85:15

failing for practice meditation or yoga

85:21

or something like that because looking

85:25

at mental well-being we need to take

85:30

time for self-reflection and 5 when

85:34

you're gonna do something

85:36

remove all the distractors like your

85:39

cell phone put it in flight mode and

85:42

really give yourself the time to just

85:45

engage in the task wow that that goes on

85:52

Instagram top 5 Katherina

85:56

gospic thank you so much thank you it's

85:59

been fantastic to have you here yeah I

86:01

loved every second talking to you thank

86:03

you so much for I think you will be

86:05

having you back for part 2 3 4 & 5

86:08

yeah over time because this is uh this

86:11

is fantastic and the

86:12

a toolkit that I think all entrepreneurs

86:14

and all people need thank you so thank

86:18

you so much and we'll see you soon again

86:20

yes ciao

86:22

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