The King of Candy Crush: Sebastian Knutsson

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In the world premiere of What's in the Water we meet none other than the father of Candy Crush, Sebastian Knutsson. Candy Crush is the world's most downloaded mobile game with over 3 000 000 000 (!) downloads. We talk about the game, about Sebastian's secrets of business and creativity, and find out how Canadian TV came after him for destroying the sex life of Canadians.

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Transcript

Note: This is an auto-generated transcript that will butcher words and names sometimes (Our favorite is when our guest Johannes Cullberg became “Your Hummus Cool Bye”). The format is not optimized for reading, but for searching for specific segments. Hence the timestamps etc. Happy searching!

00:00

welcome to what's in the Walter what

00:03

what's in the Walter no welcome to the

00:07

first episode of what's in the water

00:10

yeah first off I'm Walter I sound like

00:13

this and you're Johann and you sound

00:16

like that yes I sound like this so we're

00:19

gonna be two hosts hosting this podcast

00:21

and it's kind of important that you kind

00:23

of recognize our voices so this is our

00:25

voices what's in the water is a podcast

00:28

where we meet some of Sweden's most

00:30

inspiring role models I would say in

00:33

entrepreneurship and music in tech and

00:36

business in sports and the reason why

00:39

we're doing that is because we want to

00:42

supercharge really Sweden's success and

00:46

Swedish entrepreneurship and also

00:49

entrepreneurship in the world because we

00:51

strongly believe that if we get even

00:54

better entrepreneurship in Sweden and in

00:57

the rest of the world it's gonna take

00:59

the world to the next level yeah simply

01:02

I mean the world is changing very fast

01:03

right so we think that adapting to that

01:07

means building new solutions to the

01:09

problems that keep coming up and keep

01:11

changing and the existing companies will

01:14

many of them will keep doing great but

01:16

there's also a level of automation that

01:18

will increase a level of AI that will be

01:21

incorporated in this companies which

01:23

means that you know one way of looking

01:26

at it is that people will lose their

01:28

jobs but I prefer looking at it as

01:31

resources that are freed up for people

01:34

to do new things and innovate and create

01:37

new value for the world and that's what

01:41

we want to inspire and help people see

01:44

new solutions and new ideas for if you

01:47

learn something new you have the first

01:49

level we want to be the second level

01:51

when we meet all these amazing role

01:53

models and in the conversations that

01:55

Walter and I have to inspire but also to

01:59

educate and challenge to do the best of

02:04

their lives yeah this podcast it's not

02:07

about showing you how to set up your

02:09

first company and how to send your first

02:11

invoice that's not

02:13

gonna be doing here you could just the

02:15

same beam entrepreneur at a bigger

02:16

company or just working somewhere and

02:19

needing new inspiration and you know new

02:21

energy so it's not like we're trying to

02:23

teach you how to start a business but

02:24

more like how do you become better at

02:27

what you do how do you produce better

02:29

results how do you become happier you

02:31

know because that's aligned and it's

02:33

aligned also with finding meaningful

02:35

purpose and a meaning meaning in your

02:37

everyday work so that's kind of what we

02:40

talk about with our guests also like how

02:43

do you go about your life how do you

02:44

produce better results how do you how do

02:46

you become happier and the first episode

02:48

is with one of Sweden's greatest

02:52

entrepreneurs the founder of one of the

02:55

founders of King and the creative

02:57

director of King Sebastian Knutson yes

02:59

who created a game that's been

03:01

downloaded three billion times candy

03:05

crush and it's I would say arguably one

03:08

of the biggest successes of Sweden all

03:10

time this is the first episode and sit

03:14

back and enjoy and we bring you

03:17

sebastian Knudsen

03:18

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03:24

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03:26

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03:32

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03:33

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03:34

[Applause]

03:36

[Music]

03:43

this is kind of cozy right yeah it's

03:46

quite nice

03:47

so welcome Sebastien Knutson thank you

03:50

is that how you see your name in English

03:52

I tend to get people calling me Knutson

03:54

but the whole family hates that but and

03:58

and the work I'm often called just sab

04:00

it's easier so you want I know that

04:03

you've never played candy crush before

04:04

and now you have your chance here to ask

04:07

the creator of candy crush all your

04:10

questions

04:10

what makes candy crush and what makes

04:14

the games that you guys produce so

04:17

addictive so that so many people play

04:19

them I think the key thing for us was

04:21

always making the games were accessible

04:23

so anyone could sort of like the the old

04:26

easy to play but a lifetime to master

04:28

it's finding that sort of essence where

04:31

everybody can jump into the game of the

04:33

widely realized that this actually skill

04:35

element here I feel better at the game

04:36

and you start feel smart and I think a

04:40

lot of the classic games they're they're

04:41

quite also demanding in time to be good

04:45

at quake or World of Warcraft you almost

04:46

have to commit four hours a day

04:48

practicing otherwise you feel like an

04:50

idiot when you go online and people are

04:51

laughing at you I think these games are

04:53

very much a safe escape zone it's

04:56

finding that so that we always looked

04:57

for like could you find a 2-3 minute

04:59

game loop and that's enough

05:00

to feel like you had fun you did

05:02

something you beat the level and then if

05:05

you want to go back an hour later or two

05:07

days later the game is still there

05:08

waiting for you there's no pressure and

05:10

when you design the games are you

05:12

involved in the details or I think some

05:17

of the early games I did sort of a lot

05:19

of the details like original candy crush

05:21

but over time the teams have become

05:23

pretty big so I'm I scratched the

05:26

surface but it's all down to the

05:28

10-million candy crush in particular was

05:30

that your creation originally like did

05:32

you draw it on a piece of paper or how

05:33

did how did that come about

05:34

yeah so there were several stages to it

05:36

we first had it on a website where we

05:38

had a lot of mini games so I did that

05:41

game probably purely on paper here's the

05:44

design I wanted the candy

05:46

a lot of the games before that had had a

05:48

very consistent look they were always

05:50

like jewels and these things that I felt

05:52

weren't that relatable so I was trying

05:55

to sort of both innovate on the gameplay

05:57

and then find the visual theme that

05:58

looked shiny glossy that the type of

06:01

thing people wanted to see but also

06:03

stuff you could understand so like these

06:05

eatable beautiful candies felt much more

06:08

relatable than by Milton ambience I

06:10

wanted to eat some candy but I couldn't

06:13

because then I would gain weight so play

06:15

a game we're gonna do a game without

06:17

getting fat right now but I think that

06:21

that was one of the starting points and

06:22

then as we evolved the game that the

06:25

first iteration of the game was a

06:26

three-man team and then we did it on

06:29

Facebook then we were like a seven-man

06:31

team and I think over time today the

06:34

candy team is over 100 people and we're

06:36

still producing content and it's a it's

06:38

really a team effort yeah what's your

06:40

story what's your background so I've

06:42

been an entrepreneur for about 23 years

06:44

now I started my first company a few

06:47

months after business school which was

06:49

like an early internet agency consultant

06:52

type of business that went from we were

06:56

six founders there there as well

06:57

and we went up to 700 people in three

07:00

years when sort of also multinational

07:02

and was part of the early comm booms out

07:05

say and also sort of late nineties yeah

07:08

so that company was called

07:10

spray so it grew really fast we listed

07:13

part of it on NASDAQ we blew up pretty

07:16

fast at the end as well so it was a good

07:18

learning experience and was quite young

07:20

for people my age spray is one of the

07:22

companies you really there was one of

07:24

the big ones in the.com era in Sweden at

07:28

least yeah that was a we had a lot of

07:30

good some best friends we met there at

07:33

work had a lot of great people that went

07:35

on to become entrepreneurs afterwards

07:37

and after those years it was a massive

07:41

journey in a short period of time it

07:42

started another startup with some my

07:45

colleagues from there did internet

07:47

telephony in a company called fjord for

07:49

two years or three and after that 15

07:52

years ago we started King essentially

07:55

some again the same group of people from

07:58

part of all like part of the spray

08:01

together that kept working together so

08:03

what happened with the few word because

08:05

that's the company that you don't know

08:07

much about I haven't heard about it

08:09

we we did odd things right we built both

08:12

like a telco service for making ten

08:16

telephone conferences but we also made

08:18

prank calls on the same technology and

08:21

we also did customers now we had prank

08:24

calls that will up on like full-page and

08:26

in the daily papers in Sweden and you

08:28

could control a prank call with the

08:30

touch dial phone and really Aftonbladet

08:34

that it was a big service and the taxi

08:36

companies hated us for some of the jokes

08:38

and and there I did I wrote the scripts

08:40

for those sort of sketches and built the

08:43

service together with other teams I

08:45

think we're quite agnostic to what we

08:47

built them you were the skype before

08:48

Skype you diode have been this guy Skype

08:51

was out there and then sort of it came

08:53

around the same time I guess but we're

08:55

we did different type of services I

08:57

think one of the odd things I did in

08:59

spray this was probably also designed

09:01

spray date which we launched and we

09:04

built it over two months and became like

09:06

a massive success and and so it was

09:08

really successful for a long time in

09:10

Sweden because it was like free dating

09:13

service before internet dating was okay

09:16

exactly and the other thing I designed

09:18

it as a wait for people to chat in in

09:20

interact and they started to date in

09:23

real life and the site became the

09:25

biggest dating site in Europe actually

09:26

after you know how many people are

09:28

married because of you probably more

09:31

than I want to know but the other thing

09:34

was that then suddenly the dating

09:35

services come and add the smarter idea

09:37

that I had they actually took paid you

09:39

had to pay money for them which I didn't

09:41

really think of I did it as a fun

09:42

service nobody did at the time right

09:44

exactly it was like kind of a cool shift

09:47

yeah almost the same service but adding

09:50

something or detracting something and

09:53

then it's a huge financial success yeah

09:55

and it's still sort of and again that

09:58

they also get sort of the the web

10:00

services they also become surprised when

10:02

suddenly dating went to mobile and

10:04

tinder became massive and then it took

10:06

over and then suddenly was a different

10:08

behavior

10:08

yes gamified exactly it's more like a

10:11

game suddenly instead of the the serious

10:13

matching dating

10:14

remember clearly how I was out on a

10:17

sailboat and I discussed you know as

10:19

entrepreneurs sometimes do over a glass

10:21

of wine discuss the ideas and one of the

10:24

ideas we talked about was okay so that

10:26

we all know that internet dating will

10:27

eventually be okay exactly what is

10:31

something yeah and then just took off

10:33

yeah and it felt like something and I

10:35

was on designing a product where I felt

10:38

like I had a girlfriend at the time so I

10:42

couldn't really use it so I got some

10:43

colleagues can you use it to see what's

10:44

happening and had to sort of keep

10:46

redesigning but embarrassed to use it

10:49

yeah I was too embarrassed use of myself

10:50

and have like fake chat dialogues here I

10:53

had a short time before I was a single

10:55

guy five years ago or something like

10:58

that and I got to try out tinder mm-hm

11:02

but I you know I guess you guys haven't

11:04

right no no no I had tinder for a while

11:09

okay so you've been you see you've seen

11:11

it yeah it's and I think it was like I

11:14

think it was a massive because I also

11:16

had match and I think that match really

11:20

sucked because as a guy you sent all

11:22

these messages and no one answered and

11:25

at the the general idea of just swiping

11:29

and having a match was just casual

11:32

that's like user experience so you're

11:36

the spiritual grandfather of Skype and

11:38

tinder yeah but what I've heard

11:43

sometimes is like I guess with with the

11:45

dating services I built I allowed people

11:47

to meet and make babies and what I've

11:49

heard with candy crush had disrupted

11:51

marriages because both both parties just

11:53

play candy crush in the bed and making

11:55

no babies anymore you equal out that

11:57

sort of mate maybe making less babies is

11:59

good for the environment I don't know

12:01

and the same people that got married

12:03

actually got divorced because of you as

12:05

well but I was on Canadian TV where they

12:09

complained I was the devil of destroying

12:12

the sex life of Canadians because of a

12:14

candy crush their moment in my life so I

12:17

heard a rumor and I don't know if this

12:19

is true or not but the rumor says that

12:21

the original king.com website that you

12:25

produce that in PowerPoint in a huge

12:27

PowerPoint deck

12:28

is that true or false it's still true

12:30

that most of the things I do I always

12:31

draw it up in wireframes and PowerPoint

12:33

they still work that way 20 20 years in

12:36

well III think PowerPoint is I'm a

12:39

sucker drawing I control from a full

12:41

life to save my life and way and I can't

12:44

code I come to art so PowerPoint became

12:47

a good way to visualize and try to

12:48

document my own ideas in both words and

12:51

and simple wireframes and structures

12:53

where I could sort of work with the tech

12:55

team or an art team and explained this

12:56

is roughly what I want and it's sort of

13:00

become my way of actually visualizing

13:01

ideas where I do pretty bad PowerPoint

13:04

drawings and I still do them today a lot

13:07

of people I think they want to start

13:08

something out and they spent a bunch of

13:11

time and money on getting the right year

13:13

you know before they even start creating

13:16

anything you you'd be a great

13:19

inspiration for us not to do that right

13:21

I don't need the gear but but I mean

13:23

it's often trying to define an idea in

13:25

some way for it where I think whether

13:27

it's sort of doing an infinite bank or

13:30

done cropping site so then later in lost

13:32

years doing games but often it's about

13:35

breaking down the idea and some

13:37

something you can sort of how would we

13:39

go about building this how should it

13:41

look this is the audience were after and

13:43

I think it's a good way to document all

13:45

those things into some sort of vision

13:47

doc before and that's a bit what the

13:49

tool is for me it's about getting the

13:51

idea down but also trying to be specific

13:54

enough that you understand how would I

13:56

solve this problem because in any site

13:59

or any game or any product you do online

14:02

it's about solving some sort of problem

14:04

there is a guy called Ray Dalio have you

14:06

heard about him No so he's I think

14:08

arguably one of the most successful

14:11

investors in the world and he has a

14:14

company called Bridgewater and he wrote

14:16

down all his principles in a book and

14:19

also he is friends with some very

14:21

interesting and inspiring people and

14:24

what he what he did was he asked them if

14:27

they could take a personality test and

14:29

they saw what what's the common factors

14:31

between these people yeah the Fred trait

14:34

somehow yeah okay yeah and when one of

14:36

the interesting things that you're I

14:38

think you're saying is okay you have to

14:41

have the

14:41

like the big vision but you also have to

14:43

break it down into detail so it's

14:45

practical and something that we can

14:48

actually do and that was what he is

14:51

calling

14:52

shapers that when speaking to Ellen

14:56

masks he can be very interested and very

14:59

engaged in in saving the world and then

15:04

the next five seconds later he talked

15:07

about the new handle in the Tesla Model

15:10

X and how shape of that the shape of the

15:12

Hamill and how proud he is of the like

15:15

super details of the car mmm

15:19

makes total sense to me as well I'm not

15:22

so involved in the details anymore was

15:23

that quite true known candy crush but

15:26

I'm I've realized also now what king

15:29

I've tried to go back to being just a

15:31

manager wasn't my thing so even

15:33

currently on the lost candy and the

15:35

others I've stepped into the teams as

15:37

the designers I get to do my PowerPoint

15:39

again for the next game in the next game

15:41

so so the games are actually produced

15:43

first in the ideas are produced in

15:46

PowerPoint part of it and I mean there's

15:49

several tracks I I just like to get sort

15:52

of I think of it like a vision doc

15:54

somehow if you're doing a game or any

15:57

idea you need if you can't present it

15:59

simply enough that you can get the team

16:00

to sort of that's what we're doing and

16:03

get engaged in the idea that then then

16:05

you have a problem because it's really

16:06

hard to go forward if people have I

16:08

think he meant that or maybe that's the

16:11

idea and you have four people have four

16:12

different ideas in the head and trying

16:14

to design that together put it in the

16:16

simplest trade where you can actually

16:17

sell and explain the idea both

16:19

internally and externally and elicit

16:21

start with like a vision with the target

16:23

audience or does it start with this is a

16:25

great game idea or a game play ID or

16:28

design I'm probably more idea driven so

16:31

I mean sometimes it usually it evolves

16:33

in my head for a while I know when I

16:35

start and this could work but I rarely

16:37

committed to paper until I've started

16:39

found sort of I'm right for the idea

16:42

what shape is that the PowerPoint or is

16:45

it now it's more I probably did more in

16:47

my head that there's a joke internally

16:49

I'm at King and it's it's actually

16:51

fairly true that I come up with a lot of

16:53

my ideas in the bathtub

16:54

it's

16:54

inordinate amount of time in my bathtub

16:56

in the morning and evenings and that

16:58

that's a good sort of just selling out

17:01

and I'm thinking of the idea or rather a

17:03

problem you're trying to solve and when

17:05

you get the solution I'd like to have a

17:07

few sort of partners at work I sort of

17:10

start to test the idea and sort of maybe

17:11

on the whiteboard and there's I think a

17:15

lot of talk about autonomy in teams and

17:19

being involved in details can take away

17:23

autonomy and take away freedom no but I

17:25

think there are pieces where I feel like

17:27

these are important because they're like

17:29

a key construct that has to make the

17:31

idea work it's sort of I think of it

17:33

like here's a here's a boundary

17:35

condition it has to have this thing has

17:37

worked but if the art style is X or Y I

17:40

don't that that's totally open for the

17:43

team to come up with or as long as it

17:44

does this you can be super creative on

17:46

on that part and I think when I put

17:49

together an idea it's not about getting

17:50

every detail on paper it's it's about

17:52

setting the framework the framework and

17:55

the big strokes and then I know that the

17:58

idea is going to be if I'm really good I

17:59

can get like 75 percent right and and

18:02

the rest we have to learn along the way

18:03

and even then a lot of things when we

18:06

test them actually not that fun and you

18:07

start to that so it's it's just having a

18:09

shared framework where you start to to

18:11

learn together as a team and testing

18:13

things and failing and throwing away

18:15

things and restarting but it's about

18:17

having that common goal in a way rather

18:19

than here's the instruction so right

18:22

when you create a game the ultimate goal

18:24

of the game is that it has to be fun ya

18:27

know and I mean that there must be a

18:29

challenge sometimes that you kind of

18:30

move between like quality aspects or how

18:34

it looks or how perfect it is but is it

18:37

fun yeah yeah but it's a starting point

18:39

for any game and I think often if it is

18:41

fun you feel it even when you have like

18:43

boxes moving and the game is still not

18:46

looking nice but you can actually

18:47

understand oh this would be fun to play

18:49

and that comes with intuition after

18:52

while that on paper first this feels

18:54

like a great idea on paper and then you

18:56

do a ugly prototype and you feel like

18:59

this still feels like fun and if it's

19:01

not fun you feel it early and and that

19:03

that usually means you stop early as

19:05

well you are also involved in the

19:06

business yeah

19:07

in the company and all that and you kind

19:09

of move between these kind of serious I

19:11

would imagine you know matters down to

19:14

like is this fun is that a challenge for

19:17

you or do you have to do it on separate

19:18

days or is this like how does it work

19:20

for you no I don't think that's a

19:22

challenge for me I think it's sort of

19:23

and I think it should be first as a game

19:26

company it needs to be at the heart what

19:27

we do I think if if you don't love games

19:30

or think games have fun it's really hard

19:32

to do the job at King right yeah you

19:34

love games a problem playing games since

19:37

ages I started on like text adventures

19:40

on the spectrum days etc so even before

19:44

I managed to actually develop games as a

19:46

occupation I've always been playing you

19:48

have kind of a top-five list of your

19:51

most fun games that you know I would

19:55

have such a hard time picking those but

19:57

I've always been a big fan of the

19:58

Nintendo games like the the Mario games

20:00

and the Zelda franchises that they've

20:02

given me some so many great moments from

20:04

the oldest versions to even to new

20:06

versions on the switch that those are

20:09

really impressive and how they manage to

20:11

keep those games really feeling like the

20:13

best games ever for 30 years going so I

20:16

think that's somebody to look up to we

20:18

were recording this in the studio in my

20:20

house yeah actually and I grew up not

20:23

too far from here and I went to school

20:25

you know right up the street here and

20:26

every lunch we headed out from school

20:29

and we went home to this friend of mine

20:31

who had a PC and we played Sierra games

20:33

yeah King's Quest the Space Quest and

20:35

police quest and all those I love those

20:36

you do we share that because that was

20:39

like the main thing we did after school

20:41

and at lunch but how do you feel I know

20:45

I for me at least that was a big part of

20:47

me learning English through those games

20:49

and that kind of disappeared after a

20:51

while with the games moving from the

20:53

text-based games to more mouse

20:57

point-and-click based games do you think

21:00

you missed that a little bit or no no

21:03

but I guess I started playing those

21:05

adventures I guess I suspect 10 years

21:08

before you did so when I played them

21:10

they were purely texts like the zorg so

21:11

you actually input the input text I

21:14

write the text and they were only had to

21:15

use your imagination to understand what

21:17

the environment was and I had like

21:19

agreed so it was totally great way too

21:21

you learn the language and actually read

21:24

the language spell I think for while the

21:28

games became very much about cool

21:29

officials yeah they have to look better

21:31

and the gameplay so so I think I grew up

21:33

with some of those where gameplay could

21:36

be didn't have to look good but it was

21:38

more about the beauty of the game system

21:39

itself and it's something I've taken to

21:41

heart that King I think with these

21:43

simpler casual games we do it's really

21:45

about finding that core negative fun

21:47

regardless if it's looking good or not

21:49

yet those stories were fantastic I mean

21:52

they're spectacular stories really like

21:55

films or something and series but then

21:58

they have also had this aspect of

22:00

imagination and and triggering that and

22:02

in people and is that do you think that

22:04

I don't want to call you old now but my

22:07

older game designers that have that

22:10

heritage coming into game design I kind

22:14

of bring that with them for you you said

22:17

you did but do you think that's like a

22:18

general trait and an older game silent

22:20

no but I think a lot of the game

22:22

designers are really strong I feel that

22:25

they appreciate both like here's a super

22:28

fantastic beautiful game but I think the

22:30

the simplicity you find today is in

22:32

board games for example I love playing

22:34

board games with friends or the family

22:36

we have a lot of board game nerds at the

22:38

office and we all go by and I think a

22:40

board game is good example where you

22:42

have to break down an idea into very

22:43

simple rules everybody can understand

22:45

them still it should be fun to play

22:47

10,000 times with your family right yeah

22:49

you really see now with tech like you

22:51

know you have the VR headsets and you

22:54

have the AR you know kits for iPhone and

22:57

stuff do you think we're moving into new

22:59

because I think what you talked about

23:00

with graphics becoming more important

23:02

than Story was a product of the

23:04

technology evolving and now we're in a

23:06

similar kind of technology leap here do

23:11

you think that's going to be something

23:12

that's are we moving into similar kind

23:14

of era now of technology becoming more

23:16

important I don't think I guess I'm not

23:19

so sort of super I think VR is

23:22

interesting but I think I think there's

23:24

more interesting games and I think some

23:26

of the games you mentioned for example

23:27

like World of Warcraft and the games we

23:29

actually played together I think that's

23:31

the beauty of the latest games that have

23:33

been really stronger games to play

23:34

together

23:35

real time with other people I see my own

23:38

son playing games and their voice

23:39

chatting continuously while they're

23:41

playing team-based games and I think

23:42

that the social aspect is essentially

23:45

often more important than is it the best

23:47

graphics right I think there is also

23:49

always a human some kind of human need

23:53

that drives the behavior and the human

23:56

need even though we get slightly screwed

24:00

up with the did everything digital and I

24:02

think it changes the chemistry in our

24:04

brains it's still the same brain so it's

24:08

still the same type of human needs to

24:10

feel loved or to feel special or to feel

24:14

like you develop or contribute to

24:19

something else and solve problems but a

24:21

sense of community is a key thing and

24:24

almost any game you play whether it's a

24:25

board game or a video game or mobile

24:27

game it's more fun if you play with

24:29

others and you can stop think because we

24:32

had Nintendo and we had me my sister we

24:35

always had a competition of Mary how do

24:39

you pronounce that in English Mario Kart

24:40

yeah yeah and he still to this day beats

24:46

me and it's super annoying and it

24:49

doesn't matter like it doesn't matter

24:51

what I do she still comes up with a way

24:54

to become slightly better than I am at

24:57

that game and that's very annoying but

25:02

those are the moments you remember often

25:03

it's sort of when you're playing with

25:04

friends or family and and so do you have

25:06

those whether it's competition or doing

25:09

something together collaboratively I

25:11

think those are a bit like you're saying

25:12

if you can get those motions into game

25:15

play that's when it becomes really

25:16

interesting and I think one thing you

25:18

said when we produce the video and for

25:22

the for the introduction of the part was

25:23

that you can play the game in a short

25:27

while and feel like you're good at it

25:29

but it's still it's over 3,000 levels in

25:34

the game so that you can play it for a

25:36

year or years and years and years and

25:38

still not to finish the game yeah and I

25:42

think some people find their their drive

25:45

is to try to get to the end for others

25:47

it's just a way to zone out

25:48

and find sort of a bit relax or others

25:51

are doing it because I'm just trying to

25:52

beat Walter and I just want to get the

25:54

head of him I don't care if I get to

25:56

them as long as I'm a head that's what

25:57

the artboard games are all about beating

25:59

our family and I do have a favorite

26:02

board game or a favorite analog game

26:05

what one gamer I still loved that's very

26:07

simple and good for the family I take to

26:09

ride this very simple game that I think

26:11

everybody enjoys and and I think there's

26:14

tons of great board games I think our

26:16

son was for a while didn't like loose

26:17

things we started also to focus on

26:19

collaborative games where it's more like

26:21

it's us against the board game so if we

26:23

lose we all lose so no but it's pissed

26:25

at each other and then those games are

26:27

very interesting as well

26:28

there's a few good ones where you can

26:29

play as a team today and that seems to

26:33

be actually a growing piece of board

26:35

game so so do you have you have a

26:37

favorite example for our audience here

26:41

what's the best example of that one I

26:44

mean the there are simple ones like a

26:46

castle panic or and and I think there's

26:51

there's like games I can't remember the

26:53

name contagion I think where you also

26:55

have this you you work as team you have

26:57

different roles and you have to beat the

26:59

game and there's many versions of these

27:01

games where you sort of evolve the board

27:03

game over time it's um it's getting

27:04

closer to somewhere playing what

27:06

role-playing games was for me as a kid

27:08

right half the reason I want to go to

27:10

Yellin yeah the Swedish mini Alps yeah

27:14

is to play board games for me skiing and

27:17

playing board yeah that's what I do what

27:18

do you do you wander you do that as well

27:20

ski you come home after a hard day of

27:23

skiing you just kind of you know sit

27:25

back light a fire in the fireplace and

27:27

then you pull out a board game yeah and

27:31

have a beer the beer is important yeah I

27:34

think having a very nice beer after a

27:37

full day of skiing is very important yes

27:40

we should probably have some some beer

27:41

entrepreneurs on the podcast as well to

27:43

talk about that later on what one of the

27:46

things that I think is really really

27:48

inspiring is that you guys you've

27:50

evolved over time if you take the real

27:54

estate business everything is in is very

27:57

slow in the gaming business in the

27:59

digital age I guess everything is

28:02

very fast yep in our research before

28:05

this conversation one of the things that

28:08

came up was that you had a successful

28:11

business but you weren't really at

28:13

Facebook and then you you really had to

28:17

change your business and you were

28:19

compared to Singha quite small on

28:22

Facebook but still had to put a lot of

28:25

effort and focus and resources how do

28:28

you kill your darlings when everything

28:30

goes so fast and you still have to make

28:34

some kind of change I think that those

28:37

were interesting times I mean we had a

28:39

business that was doing pretty well and

28:41

and at some point we integrated with the

28:44

old-school portals you almost don't

28:46

remember them today like the yahoos de

28:48

Wells etc in Europe and the US and we're

28:52

noticing the traffic started to really

28:53

die down suddenly for no particular

28:56

reason we thought and then we realized

28:58

it was Facebook had an effect on us but

29:00

we were quite slow in reacting so the

29:02

first year we sort of I think where

29:04

we're still trying to solve other things

29:05

can we find growth elsewhere and then at

29:08

some point we saw that way we have to

29:09

sort of rethink our business and do some

29:11

sort of pivot so we pretty open and

29:15

transparently with the whole company

29:16

we're about 120 people at that time so

29:19

that we said like we still have a good

29:21

business it's gonna last for two years

29:23

if we screw up everything we still have

29:25

two years in the bank and it's fine but

29:27

we want to reinvent ourselves and next

29:30

two years so half the company will focus

29:31

on the old business and half will start

29:33

doing this new thing of Facebook and

29:34

they mr. crackit at some point and I

29:38

think one of the things we did that

29:40

worked well for us was actually saying

29:43

like instead of doing one temp attempt

29:45

at the time we started like six parallel

29:46

projects to have a few shots and goal

29:49

and not if we there's always that risk

29:51

if you do one idea and then next idea

29:53

you start to lose confidence or and it

29:55

takes time so we set up these small

29:57

teams that worked in parallel with

29:59

different ideas to find the winner so it

30:01

said this is a classic problem when I

30:03

went to business school we always used

30:05

to talk about plating Christianson and

30:06

the innovators dilemma and this is the

30:08

classic problem you have this cash cow

30:10

and and you don't move in time to the

30:13

next platform and we were quite slow

30:15

we even we also had some fallout with

30:18

some of the board members that won one

30:19

of us in the early investors felt that

30:22

it said you guys a bit too old you

30:25

should just quit your job and an hi or a

30:27

20 year old to be the CEO instead you

30:29

should leave luckily that wasn't the

30:32

viewpoint of all investors but that was

30:33

actually pretty good incentive for us I

30:36

think rather to prove that I've not

30:37

actually you're wrong and this is a

30:38

quick I mean we're talking about if you

30:40

talked about the classic examples of

30:42

Kodak and all those guys that had to

30:43

move from analog to digital and you'd

30:46

say that that was a fast change that was

30:48

actually quite slow change that's

30:50

compared to what you were doing I mean

30:51

you you were moving from first from from

30:53

web to Facebook and then from Facebook

30:55

to mobile yeah and I was all like you

30:57

know one half years ago those things

30:59

which is insane I mean I remember

31:01

Facebook had that too they stopped

31:04

development of all new features just to

31:07

put everything into moving to mobile

31:08

exactly yeah they really focus and I

31:10

think that the focus helped I think

31:12

that's one of the key learnings for me

31:14

like even the early startups before King

31:16

did often if you try to do everything at

31:19

once you start to lose it happened when

31:22

I was part of starting Sprave way back

31:23

right and then we tried to we were

31:26

really successful in some pieces and

31:28

then we started to take on the world by

31:29

doing everything whether it was

31:31

ecommerce or search engines we wanted to

31:35

be in every place and that that's a good

31:37

way to destroy distract yourself from

31:39

success somehow and and you spread

31:41

yourself then yeah when you had this

31:43

giant problem for example like our our

31:46

business is gonna die in two years it's

31:48

kind of a big problem sort of your plan

31:51

how did the team react did it because my

31:55

experience is that if you have a big

31:57

problem people also come together and

32:00

work even harder and become motivated

32:03

like every story has a big challenge mmm

32:07

and I think the being transparent with

32:09

the challenge was the key thing for us

32:11

as well rather than oh we have a problem

32:13

let's let's hide it from everybody and

32:15

pretend it's business as usual so we

32:17

were quite open where this is going to

32:19

be the challenge we're still gonna be

32:21

everybody has a job for several years

32:23

that's not the problem but we need to

32:25

reinvent the business and we need to do

32:26

together so it was about taking

32:28

everybody on that journey instead of

32:30

making that management's problem and we

32:32

don't tell the people I think that's a

32:35

key key learning from that what really

32:36

worked there was it easier because yeah

32:39

you're several cofounders of the company

32:41

is it easier or hard to do were you guys

32:44

United in that sense or was it was it

32:48

difficult to agree on saying okay now we

32:51

need to focus on Facebook and that's it

32:53

I think the good thing for us was that I

32:57

mean all of us met at spray early on so

33:00

and we had worked together so most of us

33:03

have worked together on this was the

33:04

second or third company together it's

33:06

we're quite comfortable and we have

33:08

usually quite aligned in our thinking so

33:10

I think once we decide that then

33:12

everybody was on board I think we just

33:14

bit slow and deciding to do it was it

33:17

really anyone moving from normal web to

33:20

Facebook is there anyone that has become

33:22

super successful on Facebook in gaming

33:25

after you guys that there were a few

33:27

companies coming after but pretty

33:29

quickly we were sort of late to Facebook

33:31

when everybody said it's too late seeing

33:33

as big there's no potential in coming

33:35

through and I but I think for us we also

33:39

went to mobile pretty quickly after that

33:40

because that we then we saw that this is

33:42

going to be mobile it's going to be next

33:44

thing we need to move fast and I think

33:46

there's been a lot of companies that

33:47

broke through a mobile worse I think

33:49

Facebook at that point became less

33:52

interesting sort of people didn't invest

33:54

as much into Facebook as a gaming

33:56

platform anymore as I understand you

33:59

come really from an entrepreneurial

34:01

family one of my favorite brands of

34:04

clothing is Philippe Agora and I found

34:08

out like a week ago

34:09

that that's your sister founded that

34:12

company yeah what made you guys an

34:14

entrepreneur your family now the for

34:17

most my our father and my mother with

34:19

the the they had a company before guild

34:21

blow which was like an early one the

34:24

first clothing pop clothing how cool is

34:26

the company when I grew up yeah they

34:28

started in like 66 I think and where

34:30

would like the first ones to brought

34:32

jeans to Sweden etc and I said early 70s

34:34

etc so I sort of grew up with people

34:37

were self-employed and that was just how

34:40

it was in the family

34:42

I've started to realize that I think my

34:44

sister Phillip Minh and my father we all

34:47

share some traits were all pretty into

34:48

like both the high level and the nitty

34:51

gritty of a product we both have strong

34:53

opinions when it comes to the products

34:55

want to design and and it's hard to

34:57

point even though we're quite different

34:59

people we still have some fraud trait

35:01

that probably makes us good I think

35:03

we're all into the product side of of

35:06

being an entrepreneur or thinking about

35:07

rather than being a tech person I should

35:10

think of myself as a product probably

35:12

product person first I'd say but what it

35:16

is that makes you I think having parents

35:18

that have been there you sort of see

35:20

like okay that's an occupation you can

35:22

do that and I guess you get less

35:24

risk-averse so I think for both of us I

35:27

think it was natural thing to try

35:29

knowing you might fail no it might go

35:31

bait might not go big so and at the same

35:34

time I think when I came out to Business

35:36

School

35:36

like 95 was like going to one of the big

35:41

global corporations didn't feel fun for

35:44

me it was sort of not at all what I was

35:46

looking for and it felt more natural to

35:49

if I start my own company I can be part

35:52

of shaping the type of job I want to

35:54

have instead of just accepting that's

35:56

the that's the managerial track in in a

35:59

big business wasn't really attractive

36:01

but that was what people were doing back

36:03

then yeah I think I was one that was

36:06

definitely the only guy with the video

36:07

game my friend and my business cool I

36:09

wrote one thesis on Nintendo which was a

36:12

bit absurd because typical why video

36:14

game company my writing about that and I

36:16

I felt a bit odd when you finished

36:19

Business School what was the difference

36:20

between your beliefs about

36:23

entrepreneurship compared to your the

36:26

people that you went to school with I

36:29

think I'm also sort of a competitive

36:33

person right I tried to go to the best

36:35

business school and when you get good

36:36

grades you won't find the best job and

36:38

you naturally get sucked into like okay

36:40

then management consulting or banking

36:42

seems to be what everybody wants to be

36:44

so I should also apply for those job and

36:47

at at the same time you realize that

36:49

much I want to walk around in a suit and

36:51

a tie and and and suddenly I got and

36:54

interview fortunately instead which felt

36:56

much more like okay this is a

36:58

environment I can relate to talk much

37:00

more but where I felt at home so I

37:02

jumped on that job as a project manager

37:05

in an early internet startup we're

37:08

actually selling Internet access or

37:10

early on then and that was on spray or

37:12

that that was before it was 94 and

37:15

that's where I had time to work there

37:17

five months before a few of us quit and

37:19

we started spray so I said five months

37:21

as an employee there's a fourth actually

37:23

since then I've been an entrepreneur

37:24

since 95 so did you know early on that

37:27

you were gonna be an entrepreneur no I

37:29

think I didn't set out to be an

37:30

entrepreneur at all and when I started

37:32

business school was more like I was

37:35

interested in this goal was a great

37:37

school I was still making my mind up

37:39

what I wanted to be when I got out and

37:42

it sort of just happened in a way and I

37:44

think when I talked a lot of

37:45

entrepreneurs and also colleagues at

37:47

work I think for a lot of people it's

37:49

very few people who's in the business

37:51

and they had a plan to go there and and

37:53

it's sort of I think entrepreneurship

37:55

sort of happens if you see the

37:57

opportunity to have the idea it's also a

38:00

bit risky to be like the path I need to

38:02

get there's more people are good at

38:04

raising money than there are people are

38:05

good at creating a company unfortunately

38:07

so yeah because you're also an investor

38:10

now now I'm an investor as well yeah

38:11

with the sweet capital yep is that all

38:14

the founders of its that yeah it's

38:16

taking group of founders together we set

38:18

up a fund to tumescent startups and and

38:20

sort of I think were thinking there was

38:23

a bit to one it's a fun way to keep sort

38:27

of interactive with the the general

38:29

startup community it was also where

38:31

we're having a lot of contacts of people

38:33

who contacted us and wanted us to look

38:35

at their idea and it gives us also a way

38:39

to keep working together even if we

38:41

might not all stay have some founders

38:43

have left 'game for example and then

38:45

then it makes us we have something we

38:46

can do together now you know it's 20

38:48

years we don't leave yet that's your how

38:51

do you keep a family together like that

38:53

was such a long because that is your

38:54

family too yeah no I think one thing I

38:57

think we've kept the I think we work

39:00

together for a long time but we haven't

39:01

felt the need to so let's spend all the

39:04

holidays together and have all the

39:05

family

39:06

whatever holiday I think there's way to

39:07

burn out those relationships as well so

39:09

I think we've we've kept a good

39:11

relationship where we meet regularly but

39:14

we don't feel like we have to be the

39:16

closest friends ever at the same time

39:18

because that becomes challenging

39:19

especially at the hard times you guys

39:21

have stuck together for a long long time

39:22

then yeah so some like Patrick when the

39:25

co-founders we've been working together

39:27

for 23 years I think that's incredible

39:30

bit longer than I've known my wife so

39:34

you have sweet capital together and that

39:36

means you get to see a lot of ideas I

39:39

imagine a lot of ideas and we've done

39:41

about 25 plus investments now I think

39:45

I'm fairly geographically pretty spread

39:47

we thought we'd invest mainly in

39:49

Scandinavia and UK where we're based as

39:52

a group but turns out we've invested

39:55

more in like Los Angeles is where we

39:57

have most investments and it's become a

40:00

different footprint than we expected

40:01

yeah and do you think there's a big

40:03

difference between American

40:06

entrepreneurship and Swedish

40:08

entrepreneurship sometimes I think what

40:11

we're often looking for is people too

40:13

that have had like a previous journey I

40:16

think that the preneur said - we love to

40:18

bet on are the ones who have they've

40:20

done it once they've spent a few years

40:21

in a big company and or they've run the

40:24

wrong company for three years and

40:26

they're trying again and they have a new

40:27

idea I think now it's gonna be an

40:30

interesting time where you have a lot of

40:31

people leaving a king or a Spotify or a

40:33

clone and setting up their company so I

40:35

think we're starting to see those second

40:38

generation entrepreneurs popping up

40:39

again I think it's been harder to find

40:41

those really interesting cases and in

40:44

Sweden so far yeah well actually well I

40:46

guess it's third generation now right we

40:48

had first there exact months or whatever

40:50

and then we had a modified generation

40:53

and you guys and and the eye settles and

40:56

all that and now now we're gonna see

40:59

what do you think what do you see when

41:02

people come to you now what it was like

41:03

the trend I what the ideas are or what

41:07

type of businesses you mean people are

41:09

pitching or yeah both I guess yeah I

41:11

mean mobile I think the good thing and

41:14

Vince can maybe I think we're all we're

41:16

aware that to do good business today you

41:18

go global media

41:19

and I think having enough global

41:21

successes and Stockholm or and Sweden

41:24

generally I think people are not they

41:26

feel you can be globally successful from

41:28

Stockholm which is great yeah

41:30

and I think one thing that's also

41:32

interesting I've heard and when in the

41:34

investment community when you compare

41:35

like Stockholm and Copenhagen which

41:37

would have good footprint of companies

41:39

but there it's more thin because a lot

41:41

of the founders have always felt like we

41:43

have to go to the west coast and the

41:44

valley you can't be big unless you're in

41:47

the valley but then you don't really

41:48

build the ecosystem of entrepreneurs

41:50

that can become the next generation I

41:53

think the the trend personally for while

41:58

there's been a lot of companies that

42:00

have we want to build a lot of traffic

42:02

it's it's going to be we're going to be

42:04

as big as snapchat or Facebook and and

42:07

it's all going to be about we're gonna

42:09

sell ads later when we have millions

42:10

millions of users and I think the trend

42:13

given the economy where we are it's

42:15

gonna be more interesting to look at

42:16

companies that are make revenues happen

42:19

early in the lifecycle I think the ones

42:21

just we have a good idea we're gonna

42:23

build traffic and for free product and

42:25

then later we might find a way to

42:27

monetize I think that's been working for

42:29

three years but yeah that's gonna be

42:31

hard journey going forward so we talked

42:33

about not having a business model and

42:35

scaling with not having a business model

42:38

and you guys you were actually based on

42:41

ads in the beginning no actually not no

42:44

no so we had I think from the spra days

42:47

we had we actually had a business model

42:49

where we were profitable but then we

42:52

were scaling a portal with the idea that

42:54

just traffic was enough that was the

42:56

thing and then we had the dom dot-com

42:58

bust which got us a bit like oh damn we

43:01

should have had revenues in our business

43:02

plan that that would have been a good

43:04

idea right so we were a bit like in the

43:07

99 2000 people restorative was all about

43:10

having traffic and and we woke up to

43:12

that new scenario of like no it's all

43:14

about revenues otherwise you're you have

43:16

no business so when we started King we

43:19

were really adamant about let's grow

43:22

cautiously let's be profitable and in

43:25

the early days you were playing these

43:26

fun games where you could compete for

43:28

money or play for fun so you you were

43:31

like

43:32

skill-based games where you could sort

43:34

of wager things like five chromeless to

43:37

win ten Kronus if you beat the other

43:39

player cool and you take a small

43:42

commission on that yeah but the key

43:43

thing with that it had to be skilled

43:45

games and that was a bit the core where

43:47

we built all these minigames including

43:48

candy crush in its first iteration we

43:51

add we had a few ads for a while but

43:55

that was always and then we stopped

43:56

because the other business was much more

43:58

interesting essentially we were talking

44:00

about how it's uh gaming is about fun

44:03

there's so many things even this podcast

44:06

I mean if this podcast is not fun to

44:07

listen to people are gonna leave yep

44:09

doesn't matter how interesting you know

44:12

how valuable information we have it

44:15

needs to be people have left that they

44:17

don't yeah they won't you're saying that

44:18

they won't hear this so is there any way

44:21

because I can see other areas like

44:23

education for example is there any way

44:25

we can bring in like your knowledge

44:27

about how to entertain people and you

44:30

know make things fun into education or

44:34

politics or areas where it's like where

44:36

we can you can there are more serious

44:38

you know important in quotation marks no

44:42

but I think I mean games are about fun

44:45

and it's same time a lot of the what I

44:47

like about doing the free type of games

44:48

we do is that you have to be very honest

44:51

if you don't do a good game players

44:53

don't come back tomorrow and your

44:54

ultimate goal is to have them come back

44:55

every day four years in a row

44:58

right which is the same challenge if

45:00

you're a Facebook or another type of

45:02

service and and I think part of it is

45:05

about fun part of it is about setting

45:08

what's the goal and the driver for a

45:10

person who comes to our product it could

45:12

be fun it could be utility it could be

45:16

I'm trying to beat someone or I just

45:19

want to better myself so I think there

45:21

are great educational labs like a

45:22

duolingo for language where they have a

45:25

bit like the gamification principles to

45:27

get you engaged and feel like I'm

45:28

learning I'm getting better and and it's

45:31

sort of more of a motivation maybe not

45:32

fun but the sense of accomplishment

45:34

maybe you should be an advisor for the

45:37

politicians to make it more fun to

45:39

listen to their talk and that's a tough

45:41

are so yeah I'm not sure what to go

45:43

there speaking of politicians what

45:46

you think that Swedish politicians could

45:48

do even better or do good depending on

45:51

your opinion to create an environment

45:55

that draws the best entrepreneurs to

45:58

Sweden and makes Swedish people want to

46:01

engage in entrepreneurship even more I

46:03

think we still have liked the the stigma

46:07

of making money impacting

46:09

entrepreneurship right you're you're

46:10

essentially at the disadvantage from a

46:12

tax perspective if you're starting your

46:14

own company creating employment for

46:15

others somehow our history has made that

46:19

it's more advantageous to take a job

46:21

than actually create a new business and

46:23

create jobs which is a bit odd because

46:25

if you look in a lot of other countries

46:27

in Europe you still get like a bonus

46:30

being an entrepreneur creating a company

46:32

that employs 50 people gives you a tax

46:33

benefit or a carrot of some sort and in

46:36

Sweden it's almost like a slap on the

46:37

wrist you get higher tax whereas your

46:40

investors who investing in your business

46:42

they get a better tax break than you do

46:43

in economics there is a basic fact if

46:47

you want less of something increase the

46:50

tax of it exactly that's that's like a

46:53

basic base and if you want less

46:56

entrepreneurship tax and preneur ship

46:58

more and that's where we are and I think

47:01

that needs to change as much as I think

47:03

we've seen in the press lately we're

47:05

still like the option programs of I

47:08

think you have that new way of seeing

47:10

like giving options to your employees

47:11

his way to reach them and make them have

47:13

money to invest into the next startup

47:15

and most of the debate from a political

47:17

perspective is oh that's a way to hide

47:19

salary so therefore we're going to tax

47:21

that high because you're hiding salary

47:23

but that's I think they're miss reading

47:25

the the driver and I think it's a way to

47:27

you can't in return please if you have

47:30

to give it like salary it's not

47:31

economical for anyone neither the

47:33

company nor the employee and they've

47:36

started to create some of those

47:37

incentives but again we in Sweden we

47:39

always like to have a lot of rules right

47:41

that's all yeah our background so

47:43

whatever we do so it's like you can do

47:45

that if you have less than 50 employees

47:47

but if you have 60 suddenly the rules

47:49

doesn't work for operas and I still

47:50

don't get why a lot of companies that

47:53

need to grow it's one thing to go from 1

47:55

to 50 but a company needs to right go

47:58

from 50 to 2000 before

47:59

can be a global success that helps all

48:01

of Sweden and and suddenly there you get

48:04

disadvantaged again it doesn't make

48:05

sense that we always like to have these

48:07

rules instead of having the same

48:09

incentives that you see in the UK or in

48:11

the US or because that's the next

48:13

problem right we are competing for the

48:15

same talent I know that you guys we

48:17

talked about the Swedish language before

48:18

and you said that well at my company

48:20

half of the people you know don't speak

48:23

Swedish or you know something along

48:24

those lines that the Stockholm office

48:26

now I think at least 50% the people were

48:29

employing and also the force we have in

48:31

the Stockholm office is sort of non

48:33

Swedes so we have to be competitive on

48:37

the salary market for somebody moving

48:38

from the US or moving from the UK or or

48:42

any country in Asia which makes it hard

48:44

if we have there's a high cost of living

48:47

there's a higher tax rate that's it's

48:49

sometimes a hard sell right unless you

48:51

can provide something really meaningful

48:54

for them I think there is a lot of

48:55

Swedish politicians actually listening

48:57

to you right now if you would to give

49:00

them some specific advice to empower

49:04

Swedish entrepreneurship even more I

49:06

understand the the tax and the

49:09

economical benefit and I really agree

49:11

because there is a risk and then there

49:14

should be a reward and if you take that

49:17

aside and give to three other pieces of

49:21

advice to the politicians what would

49:23

they be there's probably I mean there's

49:27

some that are short-term medium and

49:28

long-term I think short term we still

49:30

have like housing is big problem that we

49:32

could sort of have a more effective

49:34

house market because anybody you get

49:36

here it's hard to get them sort of find

49:38

a place to live if they come here as a

49:41

family we also have problems like okay

49:43

the we employed the the husband but his

49:46

wife can't find the work because it's

49:48

hard to get the visa etc so and stuff

49:50

like the whole visa rule thing that has

49:53

blown up and for some people were they

49:55

because they didn't pay taking a

49:58

vacation at the previous job they might

50:00

get they lose their work permit in

50:01

Sweden that those things don't make any

50:03

logical sense and also probably

50:05

short-term things I think long term I

50:08

think it's investing in education really

50:10

going for

50:12

we need more coders I think we need

50:14

people really can sort of deliver the

50:16

next layer of the economy and that means

50:19

we need to sort of make Swedish

50:21

educational system more competitive on a

50:23

global scale and I think we're lagging

50:26

behind from what I can say from my own

50:27

kids and the schools today and perhaps

50:29

more realistic and what what we actually

50:31

need yeah right and and maybe getting

50:34

people like you or you know people that

50:37

are there inspirational and and

50:40

knowledgeable about what what I would

50:42

say actually needed and what works out

50:43

in the entrepreneurial world or in the

50:45

workplace to get those people into the

50:48

schools and that's obviously not

50:50

realistic to do physically but maybe

50:52

digitally right yeah I think there's a

50:55

lot of interesting tools and education

50:56

to sort of educate people to convert

50:59

people in industries that are struggling

51:02

to support in these industries where

51:04

there's a growth opportunity one of my

51:06

favorite tools that I have from my own

51:08

education right now is master class be

51:11

familiar with master class know master

51:14

class is an online service we learn

51:16

about a bunch of topics and the teachers

51:17

are the best in the world okay so it's

51:20

you know it's it's a writing with

51:23

Malcolm Gladwell or it's uh it's acting

51:27

with Kevin Spacey who actually was taken

51:30

off the platform after his little

51:31

incident okay and and you know but a

51:34

bunch of people like that it's a an

51:37

Leibowitz teaching photography you know

51:39

that's kind of level yeah and and I find

51:42

that very interesting to me I can learn

51:44

from the very very best in the world and

51:46

I just find it interesting what if we

51:47

could do that with like coding or

51:50

mathematics or you know it's at school

51:53

basically what if what if you could

51:55

teach gameplay which i think is actually

51:58

a real skill it's not just play it's

52:01

it's a the real skill to make to gamify

52:03

different things you know what if what

52:06

if you could teach that to to all of the

52:08

Swedish kids through an online service

52:10

like that do you think that would be I

52:11

think those tools are great and I think

52:14

that's a way to get really inspirational

52:16

teachers in front of a lot of people

52:18

because they're it's a hard occupation

52:19

to be a teacher so if we have people are

52:21

really good at sort of being

52:23

transformative getting them sort of

52:26

by more people and I think there's also

52:28

initiative I love which is a French

52:31

school for coding which is now starting

52:33

to we had a look at super salt bringing

52:36

that to Helsinki sim which is a French

52:39

school for people want to code but it's

52:42

essentially not teacher-led there's the

52:45

students drive themselves by doing the

52:46

courses they they check each other's

52:49

coding and give each other points and if

52:51

you if I check your coding I get a

52:53

credit to get somebody to check my code

52:56

and and essentially it's a school

52:58

without teachers where you don't need to

53:00

have a degree to get into school you

53:02

just need to complete some online tests

53:04

where they see if you have aptitude for

53:06

coding and problem solving right it's

53:08

kind of gamified yeah it's totally

53:10

gamified I think people are of course

53:12

motivated like I can beat this education

53:14

in two years instead of three it's up to

53:16

the student sort of speed of learning

53:18

and and how fast I can complete the

53:20

different courses and it's been

53:21

tremendous success in France it's

53:24

starting in Helsinki I think it's a

53:26

interesting format to bring to other

53:28

countries but it probably sort of if I

53:32

have a Swedish view on it so but that's

53:34

not tyldus the system works I'd love

53:36

those type of things to work and still

53:37

get being financing from the government

53:40

because if we get sort of valuable

53:42

people through the school it brings

53:43

value regardless if it breaks the normal

53:46

format of Education and right now if you

53:48

have that kind of view that it breaks

53:49

the format and you would have applied

53:52

that rule when Facebook suddenly became

53:55

more interesting than web or mobile

53:56

became more answering them Facebook you

54:00

know that would have been a problem for

54:01

you right you have to be disruptive

54:03

sometimes and have to sort of find a new

54:04

format things work so we we have a rule

54:07

in our house and with our with our kids

54:10

if you're happy and you're nagging you

54:13

often get what you want because I've

54:17

learned in life that one of the most

54:19

important traits that has have helped me

54:21

is never giving up and in school and

54:25

growing up I was taught by my teachers

54:28

that I have to stay in line I have to do

54:32

do this don't do that and things that

54:37

has helped me a lot in my grown-up

54:39

none of them I've really learned in

54:42

school like great presentation skills

54:45

connecting with people selling stuff the

54:49

shaping of going from detail to a broad

54:52

vision it's about being able to

54:53

communicate something else it's about

54:55

like finding the treasure map finding

54:58

the X and not giving up until you find

55:02

the treasure it's something my partner

55:05

Ricardo has been working with so many

55:08

years but he often brings up that thing

55:09

is the one thing that drives us at King

55:12

and together it's like the tenacity that

55:13

the endurance of just keeping keep going

55:16

even when this can be tough moments and

55:18

you keep going if you give up and sort

55:20

of call it quits that's that's a big

55:22

difference to being successful as an

55:24

entrepreneur because there's going to be

55:25

a lot of shitty things you don't want to

55:28

do you're not engaged in it but if it's

55:30

your company you have to do them anyway

55:31

and there's going to be tough times

55:32

where you have to sort of keep trying

55:34

and trying to crack it you've been

55:36

extremely successful I think that's a

55:39

fair way of putting it mm-hmm and when

55:43

that happens I mean you've gone through

55:45

the all the others you know all the

55:47

struggles and all the things and you had

55:49

some success and then you did your next

55:51

project and then you had some amazing

55:52

success and now you're here what do you

55:55

feel drives you now

55:56

I think this I mean I still love working

55:59

so it's not even though I could sort of

56:01

relax and never work again I still find

56:03

sort of a passion of going to the work

56:06

and day to day problems I also have the

56:08

opportunity to give back to whether it's

56:11

sort of helping in I'm part of different

56:14

things like the Human Rights Watch in

56:16

Scandinavia or the the lab of Stockholm

56:21

School of Economics where it's more

56:22

about coaching entrepreneurs that are

56:24

starting their journey there and out of

56:26

the school and it's finding ways to give

56:28

back if it's charity but what I have

56:31

found so far I've started that journey a

56:33

bit and I'd love to do more of it but

56:35

also being charity is a bit like an

56:39

entrepreneur there's a there's good and

56:41

bad charities and this charities where

56:43

money is not as effective and also an

56:46

entrepreneur I want to really find ok

56:48

this is where something I'm passionate

56:49

about this is where I can be affected

56:51

and and it's about finding

56:53

how am i efficient as a charitable

56:57

person which is I think my hopefully my

56:59

next journey but it requires also a

57:02

laser focus to do that well I think if

57:04

whether it's building like a school in

57:06

Africa or or solving water problems in

57:09

India it usually comes down to the

57:11

people on the ground whether it's an

57:13

effective use of X dollars right so so

57:16

it's a bit like betting an entrepreneur

57:17

so I find almost like working with

57:19

charities is a bit like picking here's a

57:22

startup I want to bet on here's a

57:23

charity I want to bet on it's just a

57:25

different way of what one gives you

57:27

maybe money back the other one is really

57:28

trying to make good yeah was there a

57:30

moment in the in the journey where you

57:34

ticked off the box

57:36

well I succeeded with my vision I think

57:40

it's hard to put the moment and it's

57:43

about but I think that the journey would

57:44

candy crush and King became it was

57:46

suddenly so fast it sort of just it had

57:48

happened and you realize oh oh I'm here

57:52

and you tried that then you have to

57:53

start you could either be oh damn I'm

57:56

here what do I do now or like let's

57:59

focus on the things I can still solve or

58:00

what what's the next problem that would

58:02

be engaging too so I I don't have I

58:04

think I've ticked off my bucket list if

58:06

you will on what I set out to do as an

58:09

entrepreneur it feels like okay I loved

58:12

the products I'm working on but I don't

58:14

really have a big goal of my personal

58:16

goal right now is that I want to build

58:18

the next game that it's as big as candy

58:20

crush it so sort of let's proving it I

58:23

can do it again is sort of a driver

58:24

personally to me at least when I work

58:26

it's not as I'm you know I'm suffering

58:29

to get to a point where I can enjoy my

58:32

success that's just not how I

58:33

you're worried right yeah and and it

58:38

seems to me that you are not either no

58:42

and when you looking at your investments

58:45

sweet capital is that something you look

58:48

for like people that actually enjoy the

58:50

the journey and and are truly in it to

58:53

create the best thing or service or

58:56

rather than shooting for that ultimate

59:00

success at the end of the tunnel I think

59:03

I think we're looking more for the

59:05

entrepreneur

59:06

after more important to who's the person

59:07

do you think there are they driven if

59:12

they're having troubles or they're gonna

59:14

stumble will they pick themselves up do

59:16

they have the tenacity it's sort of have

59:17

they experienced hard trip it's also do

59:22

you think there would you'd love working

59:24

with them if I have to spend hours

59:25

working with more days would we have fun

59:28

together it's almost like starting any

59:30

type of partnership but it's not we

59:32

rarely look at it from like that's a

59:34

good financial idea so it's not really

59:37

what's driving us so I had a

59:39

conversation with a very successful

59:41

Swedish entrepreneur called battle hood

59:43

a few years back and he he gave a cool

59:46

piece of advice that I think has

59:48

followed me since he said whenever were

59:51

in an interview we always ask ourselves

59:54

if this person would to marry my best

59:57

friend or my sister or my brother would

60:00

I think they made a really good choice I

60:02

think it's a pretty cool piece of advice

60:05

I mean they have to be the right type of

60:08

person for the job as well like they're

60:10

the capability of the job and still I

60:14

think spending all these hours with

60:17

people so important liking the person

60:20

it's about having shared values and Fred

60:23

culture if you have somebody who's there

60:26

great for the business but I don't I

60:28

can't stand them moreover we're like

60:30

totally opposite values it doesn't

60:32

really work so you worse exactly and I

60:36

think a lot of things were what I've

60:38

learned personally but also what you

60:39

read I think just having a good values

60:41

match and in the workplace is super

60:43

important because if you have people

60:45

with very contradicting values or

60:47

objectives that it creates a lot of

60:49

friction that doesn't make the the

60:50

workplace effective yeah how do you how

60:53

do you define your values in @king they

60:57

want me to recite them actually very

61:02

interesting to hear which ones are the

61:03

ones you have on your wall and which

61:05

ones are the ones you actually have now

61:07

I think we always had the one thing we

61:09

started originally like the player is

61:12

king like the customer first type of

61:13

thinking where the player is king sort

61:15

of it's about making the players happy

61:17

and if they don't like it doesn't matter

61:18

but I think when we

61:20

about how we won't operate we have a few

61:22

different values like humble and open

61:24

has been very important to us like where

61:26

we want to have a flat hierarchy where

61:29

everybody can speak openly we want the

61:31

people to be humble because we also want

61:33

a very collaborative environment we set

61:36

out early on to have multiple offices

61:38

and if if we had realized that office a

61:41

B and C were always competing to launch

61:43

the next game instead of collaborating

61:45

that would create an atmosphere wouldn't

61:48

want et cetera I think some of the I

61:51

wanted to collaborate not compete

61:52

exactly and I think we had seen that and

61:55

I think it's also I think we hear

61:57

sometimes that were quite Swedish Anor

61:59

set of values of how we operate and I

62:02

think that the the no hierarchy no

62:06

bullshit very trying to avoid internal

62:08

politics type of thinking is something

62:10

that sort of do you think some process

62:12

is more important than prestige in your

62:14

company I think that's where we want to

62:17

be then if we always succeed I wouldn't

62:19

say like now that never happens I think

62:21

you but you have to work at it to make

62:22

sure if you see start something starting

62:25

to smell like politics or prestige I

62:27

think you have to be very adamant and

62:29

stopping it from growing or becoming the

62:33

norm because I think it's sort of often

62:36

it's it's detrimental to the output if

62:39

you want to work collaboratively as a

62:40

team people have to feel safe people

62:42

have to feel they can fail deep left to

62:45

know that if I have a great idea and I

62:47

give that to help that team I get some

62:49

credit for that work as well it's not

62:51

all about suddenly they're the heroes

62:53

and and I get nothing for it so so I

62:56

think what one thing we started out and

62:58

early on we always felt like we have a

63:00

bonus program which often having a

63:02

company but we've always had that debate

63:04

and fought pretty hard like everybody's

63:07

on the same bonus so I thought what does

63:09

that mean

63:10

so if candy does really well it helps

63:12

the whole company so if a team doesn't

63:15

launch a game it doesn't mean that they

63:16

didn't get no bonus this year it's more

63:18

like you couldn't and I think the norm

63:20

and a lot of American companies and

63:22

others is is that no you have a very

63:24

team or even individual bonuses so it

63:26

means that some get some and some get

63:28

nothing and butter that removes a lot of

63:31

the safety of being able to

63:33

take risks and and if if everybody's

63:35

trying to micromanage and optimize for

63:38

their own bonus it doesn't really help

63:39

them greater good so I think that's the

63:42

in part of our principles that's

63:43

probably quite Swedish right I think

63:45

that's quite Swedish and it's been a

63:46

some debate sometimes since we're an

63:49

international company etc it's it's

63:50

there's been some discussions around

63:52

that sometimes yes yeah so regarding

63:54

purpose I think personally that right

63:57

now and in the future it's going to be

63:59

almost impossible to build a super

64:02

successful company we're not a greater

64:05

purpose is built in to the company agree

64:09

do you have any thoughts about that no

64:11

but I think it's totally true that I

64:13

think the just building a business

64:15

because it's great for the business are

64:17

great for the fair holders is not

64:19

motivating enough for people today so I

64:21

think it's about sort of what is the

64:23

long long term mission what's the

64:24

greater thing we're trying to achieve

64:25

and I think some of the stronger

64:28

companies that they have a longer-term

64:30

mission of and I think today with the

64:32

issues we have around the environment

64:34

coming even some bit some people are

64:36

refusing to accept it etc but there are

64:39

mental health increasing that there's so

64:42

many problems to solve in the world if

64:43

you can make a great business and solve

64:46

a problem it's so much more powerful and

64:48

I think actually quite naturally you're

64:51

gonna make a great business if you some

64:52

solve some of those really big problems

64:54

as well because that's what's business

64:55

is about exactly it's solving a hard

64:57

problem and that can make success and I

64:59

think it's and that can really rally or

65:02

your the teams around it gives you

65:04

purpose as an entrepreneur gives you

65:05

purpose as an employer-employee as well

65:08

yeah so I think it's super important to

65:10

have that at heart your job at King is

65:13

you're the creative boss anyway yeah

65:17

yeah your job is to be creative mm-hm

65:20

and we all know that that's not always

65:24

easy to just you know you can force

65:26

yourself to be creative you have to have

65:28

some kind of other you know methodology

65:31

or philosophy or something way of living

65:34

or whatever and and I know your your

65:36

core answer to that is bathtub bathtub

65:39

works yeah yeah but besides that do you

65:42

have any other advice like how do you

65:43

how do you stay creative and how do you

65:45

help

65:46

your team say creative and be at their

65:48

best creatively it's it's a big

65:51

challenge being creative I do find when

65:55

it comes to games I think there's that

65:56

NYX one thing I've seen is a mismatch of

65:59

like expectations about being creative I

66:01

think less experienced people feel like

66:04

if I'm supposed to be creative or create

66:06

the game that blows people away then

66:09

give me a white piece of paper and note

66:10

no rules that that's going to give me

66:12

most creativity and it's actually the

66:14

hardest thing you can ever do and I

66:16

think the ones that are successful often

66:18

when yourself successful if is when you

66:20

decide I'm going to tackle this problem

66:22

I'm going to solve this problem or I

66:25

give it to him a certain problem this is

66:27

the type of game I want you to do this

66:28

is a problem be creative within this

66:30

space okay brief yeah and and almost if

66:33

that's a bit the smaller brief is

66:35

actually easier for the team to be

66:37

successful than saying like crock me

66:40

with something amazing I don't care what

66:41

it is but it needs to be the best I've

66:43

seen right that's an impossible

66:44

assignment I still people sort of ask

66:46

for it sometimes because they think

66:47

getting some rules to the creativity is

66:50

going to make it harder but in reality I

66:52

do find it myself it's it's easier if

66:54

you know that's the customer that's the

66:57

demographic that's the type of game I'm

66:59

doing these are the best examples in the

67:01

market of that what that customer likes

67:03

and the games that are successful so how

67:06

do I disrupt that box that that's a

67:09

better way to go about it for me my

67:10

mentor always talks about the yellow

67:12

brick road to Oz and to create a

67:16

wide-enough yellow brick road to get

67:18

autonomy and tight enough yellow brick

67:22

road to get the right direction yep I

67:25

agree completely it's the same thinking

67:27

of like okay you need a mission that's

67:30

sort of broad enough and and something

67:32

where it can be creative and that gives

67:34

people a better chance and then you can

67:36

see like it becomes a clear problem to

67:38

solve instead of saying I won't solve a

67:40

problem let's come up with it and then

67:43

you can then you can change the brief

67:44

that turns out to be the wrong brief

67:45

right yeah because it's hard to come up

67:47

both with the problem solve and the

67:50

solution rather than sort of coming up

67:52

with the solution is easier than trying

67:54

to do both yeah and how detailed is the

67:56

brief when it comes to our games where I

67:59

think we've had bow

68:00

sometimes very specific briefs - very

68:02

broad but like I said I sometimes find

68:04

if the brief is sort of tighter it helps

68:09

the team I think sometimes you still

68:11

have to think broadly and and you'd have

68:13

to do more temperatures define what is

68:15

the type of thing we're trying to do

68:16

before you can be effective one thing

68:19

that I've learned from creativity and

68:20

leading creative teams is that it's a

68:23

disappointment and having people throw

68:25

away creative work that they like can be

68:29

very that can take a toll on the team

68:31

and from what I understand I just may be

68:34

right or wrong I don't know you you'll I

68:36

will see what do you think but from what

68:39

I've heard about the the gaming industry

68:41

is that you throw away a lot of work

68:43

yeah it's similar to some some other

68:46

creative industries maybe like TV we

68:48

make all these pilots and you realize

68:50

after episode that no we're not giving a

68:53

full season to that then games are a bit

68:55

like that but you have to do a play test

68:58

you do an early game and you realize

69:00

it's not gonna be big enough and that

69:02

that's always going to be hard I think

69:04

one thing we do in the early ideation

69:07

stage of a game that that could that's a

69:09

good way to do with this you say to team

69:11

you get to do four ideas but you can't

69:15

spend more than two weeks on any brief

69:17

create four ideas you get two weeks for

69:19

each idea and avoid that to get attached

69:22

to one darling in a way and then becomes

69:23

easier later to look at for ideas and

69:26

kill three and pick one but as soon as

69:29

you've committed early to one idea and

69:31

it becomes the one thing it also becomes

69:32

quite emotional if you're stopping right

69:34

well would you say is what's the ratio

69:36

Oh what oh every part is you start how

69:40

many actually launched we've expected to

69:43

have like I eighty eighty five percent

69:45

of the projects being killed and how

69:47

many projects do you have in a year

69:51

maybe start I think historically we've

69:54

had like maybe 20 ongoing projects in

69:57

parallel different stages some have been

69:59

running for a year and a half and some

70:01

are just starting and so but but we've

70:04

expanded you have four that actually

70:06

launch per year or even less per year so

70:12

of the twenty they take maybe two three

70:14

years so I think our expectation going

70:17

forward is probably even it's harder and

70:19

harder to launch a game because the

70:20

market is more and more competitive so

70:22

so you have creatives working for you

70:25

that throw away 85% of the work

70:27

basically it's that's pretty harsh never

70:30

get them happy no but it's also why I

70:32

put myself in the same challenge of

70:34

designing games and we have sometimes we

70:37

might have like if we have four good

70:38

ideas and we have to collectively decide

70:40

which of these ideas do we believe

70:42

should go to the next stage so this is

70:45

probably I would say here's one point

70:48

where the Swedish culture might be

70:50

actually quite beneficial because you're

70:52

in the same boat yeah it's not like

70:54

you're the creative director just in

70:55

charge you know having teams competing

70:58

against each other and you decide who

70:59

wins and have competitions I you don't

71:02

work like that at all I guess right no I

71:04

think it's it's really hard when you put

71:06

teams against each other at the same

71:08

time it's also what you should do

71:10

sometimes okay it's better to have four

71:12

good ideas and if you force yourself to

71:14

pick the winner and you can if everybody

71:17

seems to agree on the same winner it

71:19

improves the odds of that being the

71:21

right choice if I'm if I'm a sole

71:23

decider I'm the only one that picks a

71:25

winner or we better not for what we're

71:27

likely to waste some time on ideas that

71:29

weren't the right ones but it's probably

71:31

the hardest thing we do so I don't have

71:33

a perfect room it has a decision-making

71:36

process yeah so there are a lot of

71:39

different steps and I think it's that

71:42

blend of I think everybody would want

71:45

the decision-making process to be hard

71:47

data so you have like alright we can

71:49

throw that this game this idea is better

71:51

than that idea and that's why that gets

71:53

the the bet but in reality early on with

71:57

the knee idea it's going to be a lot

71:58

about intuition and making a good

72:00

decision of like we think that can be

72:02

bigger and we can't really know until

72:04

one year later if it actually turned out

72:06

to be the better idea and even if it's

72:08

the ideas good you might fail on

72:09

execution because the the team didn't

72:12

worked well together or you've faced a

72:14

technical challenge you can't beat or

72:16

something else so just picking the idea

72:19

is not the whole thing right and you

72:20

have it outcome for the number of ideas

72:23

that you or the number of games that you

72:25

launch that

72:26

you want to have become super successful

72:27

I think we're not aiming at anything

72:30

outside super successful yeah we don't

72:34

want to do the middle of the road type

72:36

of avoid the two three games that you

72:41

launched per year if I understood

72:42

correctly it's even less sexually you

72:45

want and you aim for all of them to be a

72:47

super success it's sort of if you think

72:50

about candy crush the game has been in

72:52

the market for six years it's still at

72:54

the top of the charts it's sort of so

72:56

even if we launched it six years ago

72:58

it's a bit like launching a store then

72:59

you're gonna run it for five years so

73:01

it's not about getting to the launch

73:03

it's the launch is the next stage of

73:04

running it as a business so that's if

73:07

you want to run it as a business for

73:09

five years it needs to be super big for

73:10

it to worth to commit the team for two

73:12

years of building and then five years of

73:14

running even if those people switch out

73:16

and then but it's still a big commitment

73:18

as business to make that game anyway of

73:22

all the games that you've created it you

73:24

know if I would tell you you can bring

73:25

one game to an Desert Island play that

73:27

for the rest of your life which one

73:29

would you bring I'd still probably big

73:33

bring candy crush because of just the

73:35

depth of competence we have there that

73:37

would last me the longest in the game I

73:41

was playing it on the way here over on

73:43

the subways again so yeah play it daily

73:45

I still love it oh that's great that's

73:47

great to hear and the next question if

73:49

you have to decide you can either create

73:52

games for the rest of your life or play

73:55

games for the rest of your life you

73:56

can't choose both oh that's tough I'd

74:01

probably then relax by playing them to

74:04

be honest creating that mr. damn hard so

74:07

if I have to do something for us that

74:08

I've been playing games all my life so I

74:10

wouldn't be able to stop playing them I

74:12

would say that answer is probably one of

74:13

the reasons you're successful to love

74:17

playing games I would think is a great

74:19

secret to being able to create the best

74:20

games I still play any game three three

74:23

hours a day off work I play games every

74:26

day I know I've been at your house

74:28

that's like the centerpiece of your home

74:30

is there Jamin couch yeah so how are we

74:35

doing are we I think we've been doing

74:39

quite well

74:39

it's the most important thing is that

74:41

you think we're doing been doing well

74:42

you've done well guys are you happy I'm

74:45

happy

74:45

just one question turn off off the

74:48

record I wouldn't say off the record

74:50

maybe if it's a good answer we might be

74:51

on the record but the project we have

74:54

now is to create this platform where we

74:57

can inspire people to become and become

74:59

entrepreneurs and also kind of help show

75:03

the world entrepreneurial culture and

75:06

spirit of Sweden mm-hmm what advice

75:09

would you have for our effort to do this

75:13

for your effort or for the entrepreneurs

75:15

listening I think for us our effort our

75:18

cup for our so this is a basically a

75:19

startup you're an investor you're very

75:24

you're very experienced at giving advice

75:27

to the best startups in the world and

75:30

now we have you here and there are a

75:32

studio so let's let's hear it what's

75:34

your best advice for us no but I think

75:37

the the key thing this type of I think

75:39

it's about finding product market fit

75:40

this early sort of what is it the

75:42

product that actually the listeners want

75:44

like we're saying if people are voting

75:46

with their feet and they're sort of

75:47

dropping out mid mid listening maybe you

75:50

need to find another format etc so I

75:52

think it's really about finding what's

75:55

the sort of optimal format for this type

75:58

of dialogue and then sort of this type

76:00

of podcast right and once you've done

76:01

that it's the second problem becomes

76:03

about distribution but I'd really start

76:05

with product market fit and signing like

76:07

when you feel this is an amazing product

76:09

because that just unlocks all the other

76:11

problems great so since this is maybe

76:16

our first episode that we is not the

76:19

first to do we record maybe but this

76:21

might be the first one we air that's an

76:24

honor I didn't know that okay we don't

76:26

either

76:26

see but maybe we've practiced for a

76:31

while with some people that we know that

76:34

we can call them if we're not happy with

76:37

the outcome it's simple to get them over

76:40

to the studio again well that's a good

76:42

good way to solve product market fit you

76:44

can tweak the product yeah no I think

76:46

that's actually really what we were

76:47

gonna do this is not this is well I

76:50

guess it's the second podcast I do but

76:52

there's the first one with this type

76:53

level of ambition and we're trying

76:56

things out and trying to stay humble and

76:59

try it out until people like it yeah and

77:02

I think in the humbleness I think we

77:04

also want to be clear with our vision

77:07

and our vision is to really make a much

77:11

bigger impact on Swedish

77:13

entrepreneurship than the politicians

77:15

have done in the last ten years I mean

77:19

when we talked about this like we've

77:22

said can we really say this isn't this

77:25

to be super unsweet ish to say that we

77:30

like we said something about we want to

77:32

have 40 million viewers in five years

77:34

per month and then the thing is this is

77:38

so important to make Sweden and even

77:42

greater come company because Swedish

77:45

Sweden is a company or country that I

77:48

think it's important to have that

77:50

ambition and we're also putting the the

77:54

resources into it investing a lot of

77:56

time and money into it but I think the

78:00

right thing to have ambition because I

78:02

think it's the the worst thing is doing

78:04

something half-baked right we're doing

78:07

this but the ambition is just hopefully

78:09

some friends listen I love the ambition

78:11

of like let's go big and global at least

78:13

if you get halfway there it's it's still

78:15

a massive achievement right now yeah and

78:17

I think how you like all of our games

78:20

need to be successes like it's just the

78:24

the spirit it's in every cell of your

78:26

body now at the same time as you're

78:29

super humble like it's very inspiring

78:32

and interesting to both listen to and to

78:35

view at the same time and that's been

78:38

fantastic and so thank you so much

78:39

Sebastian for coming to the studio thank

78:43

you guys

78:43

it's been great on you starting what's

78:45

in the water yeah and also thank you for

78:48

the listeners that has actually listened

78:51

for quite a while right now yeah so

78:55

thank you and we will see you in the

78:57

next episode

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